#1 - How I Met My Wife and Why I'm Starting This Podcast [Annie Miller]

Chris Miller: So that means we're officially live. You're on the show.
Annie Miller: Thank you for that. Thank you for having me.
Chris Miller: We did it. We're up and running.
Annie Miller: We're up and running. I'm so proud of you, Chris.
Chris Miller: We got stuff mhm. We figured out how to use it, mhm. And we pushed the on button.
Annie Miller: Here we are.
Chris Miller: And here we are.
Annie Miller: Awesome. Well, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. I'm excited to be here, of course.
Chris Miller: And I get to have you at your own dining room table.
Annie Miller: I love it. It's our makeshift studio.
Chris Miller: I said, R, is this your favorite podcast studio you've been in so far?
Annie Miller: This is.
Chris Miller: Is it your only podcast studio you've been in? So huh?
Annie Miller: Far?
Chris Miller: Yes. Oh, which other one have you been in?
Annie Miller: I was an intern for a hospital system, mhm when I was in grad school, and I was on the team when they started their podcast. So that was very, very cool to be a part of that. And so I recorded I think I only recorded two. It may have only been one long one. So I was in that studio, and it was a makeshift studio as well at the office, but so you have.
Chris Miller: More experience than me at this?
Annie Miller: No, I don't. Totally different kind of podcast.
Chris Miller: I thought you were going to say, this is my favorite podcast studio, and then it's my only podcast studio.
Annie Miller: It's my favorite podcast studio and it's not my only, which should mean more.
Chris Miller: Yeah, that's more significant.
Annie Miller: Yeah. So I'm going to set the stage for people. It's a Sunday night. We're sitting at the table. A round table. I love a round table. I feel like something special happens around a round table.
Chris Miller: The night's the round table.
Annie Miller: Yeah. I just think it's cool because nobody feels left out. Nobody's at one end, nobody's at the.
Chris Miller: Head of the table.
Annie Miller: Nobody's at the head of the table.
Chris Miller: We're all heads of the table.
Annie Miller: So yeah. We're in our living room. I can see our sunny, sunny boy.
Chris Miller: Our gold golden retriever who's not feeling well at all.
Annie Miller: No, he's sick.
Chris Miller: We picked him up from doggy daycare, and since then he has been sick, very sick.
Annie Miller: He's taking a little bit of a turn for the better tonight with his sentiment. His sentiment wagging his tail, wanting to be pet.
Chris Miller: He grabbed a toy to grab a toy.
Annie Miller: We're taking him to the vet tomorrow. But anyhow, there's Christmas decorations up. We just had Thanksgiving, which was a blast, and everywhere I look in my direction, I can see some Christmas, and.
Chris Miller: So can you, which is thanks to you, because you're the grand decorator here.
Annie Miller: Thank you.
Chris Miller: And you have the most Christmas spirit on the whole entire block.
Annie Miller: Thank you. Chris.
Chris Miller: Where did that come from?
Annie Miller: I have always loved Christmas since I was a kid. It's just so magical. Mhm my mom made Christmas is very special and she would really. So I always say I deck the halls when I decorate. A lot of people say that, I'm sure. But my mom, when we were little, she would have a Christmas party each year called Christmas at Mary's. And I just have the best memories of being a little kid, watching her, like, prepare for the party and decorate and put up she used to put up several trees. Uh, one was like a really beautifully decorated ornate tree. And then there was one that was like the kid tree that had all the fun homemade ornaments and colorful ornaments. And then she usually had a trail. So it was like Christmas galore. And I remember she would, uh, have people over, and it was always so much fun to just be around the party. She wouldn't make us leave or go with the babysitter. We got to be there, which was so fun because I remember just walking around and looking at people mix and mingle. And there's something so cool that happens at a party like that where people are just chitchatting and I could smell cinnamon, and there were candles and little party snacks. I remember the next day waking up and there being like, some fun party snacks still out. So anyhow, I think I got my love of Christmas from her. And she really made it so special, her my dad did. Both of them did. And we were kids, and they still do.
Chris Miller: Was Santa claus a big deal in your house?
Annie Miller: Santa claus was a very big deal. I was a big believer.
Chris Miller: Are you still a believer?
Annie Miller: Hey, if you don't believe, you don't receive, man.
Chris Miller: Okay, so Santa is going to roll through. What's Santa bringing you this year?
Annie Miller: Uh, you know, I don't want anything, actually.
Chris Miller: But santa's got to bring you something.
Annie Miller: Candy.
Chris Miller: Candy.
Annie Miller: Chocolate.
Chris Miller: Chocolate.
Annie Miller: I'm cool with that.
Chris Miller: That's awesome. Mhm santa is going to bring you a podcast on January 1.
Annie Miller: Santa is bringing a podcast he's going.
Chris Miller: To put under your tree that we don't have yet, but we need to get one, a little gift, and it's going to say, I owe you in six days or seven days.
Annie Miller: Yeah, one week. Which is drumroll, please. Can I do a drum roll with the microphone on? Go ahead, say the name.
Chris Miller: The talk to people podcast.
Annie Miller: Woo.
Chris Miller: With Chris Miller.
Annie Miller: Yeah.
Chris Miller: With the perennial guest, very first annie Miller.
Annie Miller: Annie Miller. Yes, I am annie Miller.
Chris Miller: Who's special in her own right. And she could be doing this. I often tell people that you would be an incredible podcast host. And honestly, I tell people you'd be a better podcast host than me.
Annie Miller: That's very kind and generous and flattering.
Chris Miller: But it's your energy. You have such great energy.
Annie Miller: Well, thanks, Chris.
Chris Miller: Who do you though it's directed in a good manner. It's not like energy that's frenetic bouncing off the wall.
Annie Miller: It's not chaotic energy.
Chris Miller: Sometimes it can be. But whenever you're dealing with people. It's quite focused and I think intentional, which would look great, sound great when it comes to a podcast.
Annie Miller: Thank you, Chris. I appreciate that. That's very kind. I feel similarly similarly about you and your energy and the way that you make people I know I think you talked about this maybe in a different episode, or maybe it was the previous one we recorded, but you do make people feel like they're the only ones in the room when you're talking, and that's really special. You're a great communicator, and you have such a love for connection that is part of every fiber in your being. And I think that's so cool, and I admire that, and I feel you on that. I am also a people person, but not to the level that you are. So it's cool that you're doing this podcast, and I know you're going to have lots of great guests. I just noticed something. Can I go back when, uh, we were talking about my energy?
Chris Miller: Yeah.
Annie Miller: About chaotic energy. I tend to be an anxious person, so I think my energy and you can correct me if I'm wrong because you're married to me and you are on the outside. So, uh, you're still biased because you married me. But I feel like my energy is most chaotic when it's not hardest in social situations when I'm not with people. Right. Like, I feel like I get most anxious or get that chaotic energy when I'm sitting at home doing nothing.
Chris Miller: And you're at your best when you're around people?
Annie Miller: Well, I don't know. That's what I'm asking you. I guess I would say yes.
Chris Miller: And it's not only around people, but it's also whenever you have a task that you're consumed with.
Annie Miller: Yeah.
Chris Miller: I think it's idleness. They say idleness is the devil's playground.
Annie Miller: Yeah.
Chris Miller: I think for you, it's on the playground is anxiety. Going up and down the slide and.
Annie Miller: Swinging round and round the merry go.
Chris Miller: Round, going through the monkey bars. Whenever you're idle, that's whenever you get anxious.
Annie Miller: Yeah, that's a great my mom always says because when I'm anxious, I will sometimes call her and be like, Mom, I'm anxious. And she'll say, okay, what task can you do? Can you organize your pantry? Can you take Sunny for a walk? So that's a great it's not just people. That's a great observation. Yeah. anyhow sidebar.
Chris Miller: A little sidebar, but it's good for people to get to know you and get to understand. And you said that as far as communication goes, you're a great communicator and you've studied communication. So have you we both studied communication.
Annie Miller: HM.
Chris Miller: Where did you study communication at?
Annie Miller: I studied communication at the University of Kansas rockshok and Wake Forest University. Go deeks. But rockshok.
Chris Miller: And then you returned back to the university?
Annie Miller: Yeah, I returned back to the University of Kansas for a year of, uh, PhD. School.
Chris Miller: Of PhD. School. You were a PhD candidate.
Annie Miller: I was a research fellow.
Chris Miller: Research fellow, too.
Annie Miller: I don't think I was a PhD candidate. I think that is like, later on, I just was a student, but not doing that anymore. Uh, I had a transition, but I'm still at Ku, so that's fine.
Chris Miller: What are you doing now?
Annie Miller: I am the assistant Director of legacy relations and event services for the Ku Alumni Association.
Chris Miller: Wow, that's a handful.
Annie Miller: Yeah, it is a mouthful, but a.
Chris Miller: Mouthful not a handful. Yeah, that's a handful, too.
Annie Miller: Enough about me. Chris, where did you study?
Chris Miller: Hey, you.
Annie Miller: I'm hijacking a buck.
Chris Miller: I studied at University of Central Oklahoma.
Annie Miller: Go Broncos.
Chris Miller: Roll chose. And then I studied at the Wake Forest University as well.
Annie Miller: Go deeks.
Chris Miller: Go deeks. Where I met annie Miller. At the time, she wasn't annie Miller, but a few years later, she became annie Miller.
Annie Miller: Mhm.
Chris Miller: I'll let you all figure out how that happened, but you're mouthful of a job. What do you do on a day to day basis?
Annie Miller: My job, we could get into the specifics and nuances of it, but at the core, my job really is connecting with people. That's what I do on a regular basis. I do a lot of outreach, I do a lot of one on one meetings with students and families. Uh, so it's really building relationships with people as part of my job, which I feel really grateful for, and lucky, because it's something I love to do. So that's the essence of it. That's the core.
Chris Miller: Yeah. And whenever you're a little kid, did you want to be working for the University of Kansas Alumni Association as the assistant director of Legacy Relations and Events Services?
Annie Miller: I wish I could say yes, but I say no only because when I was a kid, I didn't know about Ku. I was introduced to Ku through my sister mia. Shout out to mia.
Chris Miller: The, UM memster.
Annie Miller: The memster.
Chris Miller: What did you want to be when you were a little kid?
Annie Miller: You know, uh, when I think back, I mean, I'm sure there were plenty of things. At one point, it was a doctor. My dad's a doctor. So I saw that and I was like, oh, maybe I'll be a doctor. My friend Amy will get a kick out of this, but both when we were little we didn't know each other at the time, but I really wanted to be a at, uh, one point when I was a kid. I wanted to be a cashier because I loved the idea of scanning things in the scanner and using the overhead microphone at the grocery store. Like clean up an aisle three. Clean up an aisle three. Or dairy assistance to dairy. And so I really wanted to the cashier do that. Yeah, sometimes. Yeah. Depending on what kind of grocery store you go to. Yeah, I wanted to do it all, but Amy wanted to bag. Amy wanted to be a bagger. So when we found this out, as we became friends, we were like, oh, man, we would have been the perfect pair. I could be the cashier, she could.
Chris Miller: Be the dynamic duo.
Annie Miller: Uh, dynamic duo. Yes.
Chris Miller: And they'd be like, we're really grateful that you guys have been working here. We would love to move you guys up. What are your aspirations?
Annie Miller: This is it.
Chris Miller: This is it.
Annie Miller: I thought that was a cool job. Also, can we just actually shout out people who are working at grocery stores? Not an easy job.
Chris Miller: Not an easy job.
Annie Miller: The volume of people people can have bad attitudes sometimes and be stressed out, or if they can't find something they're looking for, it's a tough job.
Chris Miller: Especially during COVID Especially during COVID They really came through.
Annie Miller: Yes.
Chris Miller: So you always wanted to scan stuff at one point?
Annie Miller: I just remember that being that's a very salient how do you feel at self checkout? I like self checkout.
Chris Miller: Do you still got that love for scanning?
Annie Miller: I still do. You know that, uh, when we go to self checkout, you try to hijack all the roles.
Chris Miller: I feel like I'm good at scanning. Like, I can throw a bag of rice on the checkout and it open. Yeah, it's like I use finesse.
Annie Miller: You do use finesse.
Chris Miller: And I try and put a little pizzazz on the, uh you do bags of rice.
Annie Miller: Now that I think about it, when I go to self checkout, I think I like doing both of them. So, Amy, I'm sorry to kick you out.
Chris Miller: I think she's a little busy now.
Annie Miller: I think she's a little busy, too.
Chris Miller: I don't think she'll be too disheartened.
Annie Miller: No, I don't think so. But I do know she had a soft spot for that, so anyhow, yeah, that's what I do now. And I'm married to you because we met at Wake Forest.
Chris Miller: How did that happen?
Annie Miller: How did I marry you?
Chris Miller: Yeah.
Annie Miller: Well, Chris, before I went to Wake forest, I did not date at all in college, which is do you think that's rare?
Chris Miller: Yes.
Annie Miller: Yeah. I didn't date at all in college. I like to say that guys did not like me, but, uh, I don't think they did. Some people are like, oh, no, you just didn't know it. I'm like, no, they rupted. But anyhow, when I graduated from ku and I was going to wake forest backtrack, I was still at ku, and I toured Wake forest, and I met you on my tour. I was already committed to go there, but I went to visit because I'd never seen the campus. I'd never been to Winston salem. I lived in Charlotte when I was a kid fun fact for a short time, but never been to Winston. So I came to tour and I met you, chris, where did you meet me? Uh, in the carswell lobby.
Chris Miller: Oh. Carswell being the building communication m. And.
Annie Miller: I remember thinking I saw you and I was like, oh, my goodness. Everybody imagined Jessica Day doing that thing with her glasses. UM, and I was like, oh, my goodness, he's so cute. Cut, too. Few hours later, I'm in your class. Like, I'm sitting in on a class, and you were cracking up the whole room. And I was like, man, he's cute and he's funny and he's nice. And I was just like, oh, my goodness. I kind of had a mini crush on somebody I just met. I came home from that tour or came home from the trip, and I remember telling my roommate and my sister and my mom I probably told her out. I was like, whoa, you guys. I shouted out of the rooftops, I'm in love. I see Michael Scott. I'm in love with this woman. I told him. I was like, oh, I met a cute guy at Wake. He's in the program. Yeah, he's from Oklahoma. And then not in a rude way, but it would be weird if I did think about you until right. Like, if I went home and then thought about you until I went to.
Chris Miller: Wake Forest, maybe you were so infatuated.
Annie Miller: Yeah, I think that's a little unhealthy, UM, of me. No, that's when you run the other way. psa. But I kind of graduated from Ku, did the thing, moved out to Winston. But before I moved, I kept saying to my sister, mia, I'm, uh, going to meet the love of my life at Wake Forest. Not necessarily. Once again, this is no offense to you, but it's kind of like, oh, I met you, and I thought you were cute.
Chris Miller: Sure.
Annie Miller: But it was like, I didn't there's.
Chris Miller: A lot more guys than me.
Annie Miller: Well, no, it was that I, uh, had such a small interaction with you. And to be honest with you, Chris and this is not me saying it just because I'm fishing for compliments or I'm trying to be humble here. I thought you were on my league. I didn't think this could happen, and it did. So I think that's another factor. But anyhow, my sister would be like, oh, my goodness. I know. I get it. You've said you're going to meet the love of your life. Well, then when I got to Wake and we started spending more time together, our offices were right across from each other. UM, we had the same friend group. We started hanging out. I started really having a big crush on you. At one point, you were dating somebody, and I said, oh, how so and so? And you were like, oh, we actually broke up. And I was like, I'm sorry. And then in my mind, I'm like, yeah, baby.
Chris Miller: You started plotting.
Annie Miller: Yeah. No, I say that jokingly, but I probably was like, HM HM. But then we started spending time together, went to Wake Forest, basketball game, went.
Chris Miller: And I think I should cut in and I'm sorry.
Annie Miller: No, that's fine. No. Cut me off. Sorry.
Chris Miller: What I want to avoid is something that annie and I actually revisited ourselves, UM, a few months ago. And that was for the past. Ever since annie and I really started officially dating, she always said that she was the one who pursued me and made everything happen.
Annie Miller: I was still am.
Chris Miller: She's still saying that. But we went back and we looked at all of the texts. Mhm and I was the one I was the one who was asking you, hey, what's your number? Hey, would you like to hang out? Hey, would you like to go to this hey, would you like to go to that? Hey, would you like to go to this basketball game?
Annie Miller: That's very true.
Chris Miller: And you were definitely not out of my league. There's this we should get jerseys because we make a good team, but yours would look better than mine because you're out of my league. And, uh, I was in the Premier League and you're in the Champions League.
Annie Miller: No way.
Chris Miller: And then you got relegated and you came down to my league.
Annie Miller: I don't think so.
Chris Miller: Which was what made all this possible.
Annie Miller: Hey, good people deserve good people. I think that's what we got.
Chris Miller: And you were a teacher at Wake Forest.
Annie Miller: Yes. Wait, can I tell a funny story about us dating?
Chris Miller: Yeah.
Annie Miller: So, one time I hope people laugh at this because I think it's funny, but chris, do you remember when we took Harper for a walk? Harper is one of our best friends. I'm going to say one of our best friends. Shout out to zack. ah. zach's dog Harper. We took Harper for a walk, and this we weren't officially dating yet, but we were getting to know each other, which people made fun of us for being in that stage. But you know what?
Chris Miller: We took our time and we were intentional about it.
Annie Miller: We were intentional. But anyhow, we took Harper for a walk and we were saying goodbye to each other. I was running a half marathon the next day. And so you had said, like, good luck. You made sure that I shouldn't say you made sure maybe you weren't, actually but you said, so people are meeting at the finish line. Right? And I was like, yeah. And you were like, okay, good. And then he gave me a fist.
Chris Miller: Bump whenever you're leaving.
Annie Miller: When I was leaving, I walked away and I was like, well, there goes that.
Chris Miller: Because I gave you a bump.
Annie Miller: Yeah, we were just heating things.
Chris Miller: What were you expecting.
Annie Miller: Something? Uh, it just felt like such a bro thing, like, okay, he just friends on me. Like, that was his way of friend zoning me. I wasn't necessarily expecting definitely not a kiss. Wasn't even necessarily expecting a hug. I think it was if you would have waived or what about a pat on the back? Okay, that might be worse than the fist bump. Oh, gosh. Like, see later, champ.
Chris Miller: Yeah, like nice hanging with your bud.
Annie Miller: Yeah, like nice hanging with you. See, it's cool.
Chris Miller: So you thought it was cut off there?
Annie Miller: Uh, I thought it was over. I was like, well, there goes that. The next day, though, you invited me to church, I think.
Chris Miller: Right. Funny how that happens.
Annie Miller: Funny how that happens. But anyhow, so you're saying you were talking about us being teachers at Wake?
Chris Miller: Yeah.
Annie Miller: Yes.
Chris Miller: And our offices were across from each other.
Annie Miller: Yes. So I would see that your light was on and I'd be like, yes. Then I figured out that sometimes you would leave your light on. I don't think on purpose, but accidentally. And I would kind of look to see, is he going to come out? And you I would be there for hours working on stuff and not like I would go there to see you.
Chris Miller: And I never came out.
Annie Miller: Uh, but you'd never come out. I'm like, either he's someone's going, is he okay? Is he taking a nap?
Chris Miller: You know, people slept in there sometimes.
Annie Miller: People did sleep in theirs. I'm, uh, trying to say I don't think I ever did. Mine was very small, but I had.
Chris Miller: One of the big ones.
Annie Miller: You had one of the big ones? Yeah.
Chris Miller: And people slept in there.
Annie Miller: Mhm.
Chris Miller: Not like people slept in mine. Like it was a B and B.
Annie Miller: No, people would go in and curl up and take a nap. Yeah, I couldn't do that. Mine was so small. I called it a professional.
Chris Miller: Most of the time when I was in the office, I was stressed out.
Annie Miller: See, I loved my Carol. My little confessional is where I focused.
Chris Miller: It was where I was like, I have to be here to work on school.
Annie Miller: Yeah.
Chris Miller: And if I was forcing myself to work on school, then more than likely, like, my head space wasn't the best place.
Annie Miller: See, that was different. You and I were different in that because I would go regular, like routinely and work on stuff and yeah, so it's different. But yeah, I was teaching relational communication. You were teaching public speaking.
Chris Miller: And it was funny because we would teach a class, mhm, we would go teach our own classes and then we'd walk to our offices and we'd like to see each other in passing.
Annie Miller: Yeah. So that's what we taught. Which I think you are a great public speaker. I feel like you could have taught either one of those for sure. And maybe I could have too. But I think I really enjoyed relational communication. It was a lot of fun for me. It spoke to my interests as a person, as a researcher.
Chris Miller: Well, that's your bread and butter.
Annie Miller: That's my bread and butter, baby. But what I was trying to do there is give you some props and credit because you are a great public speaker and you I wish I could have been a student in that class? Actually, no, because I would have been hot for teacher. But.
Chris Miller: You wouldn't have paid attention, or you would have done so well to get the attention.
Annie Miller: To get an A.
Chris Miller: To get an A.
Annie Miller: And present myself. Well, like self presentation.
Chris Miller: Uh huh. And show up in a really studious way.
Annie Miller: Yeah, show up in a studious.
Chris Miller: Academics. Uh huh. You were a really good public speaker, too. I think that Chris. I remember whenever you graduated from Ku, I hadn't known you yet. Well, I guess we had met that one time. Mhm. But I watched a speech he gave, and I was like, whoa, this girl's good.
Annie Miller: Since then, I've developed a slight case of social anxiety.
Chris Miller: Well, I think the majority of people have. I think so, too. Adam Grant.
Annie Miller: You know him? UM, yeah. Oh my gosh, yeah, of course.
Chris Miller: He has a really cool article, and he says it was like after the pandemic. Well, it was kind of in between stages. In between stages. And he put together this piece that said essentially be gracious for people if they have social anxiety. Mhm. Because social muscles just like our physical ones atrophy when they're not used. Yes. So a lot of people haven't been using face to face social muscles. Mhm. So due to that, we all need to be a little gracious. If there's awkward pauses, people have a facial expression that doesn't align with their tone. All of these little things that take.
Annie Miller: A bit that's so true.
Chris Miller: Yeah. So I don't think you're the only one who feels as.
Annie Miller: Probably not. And maybe it's because I'm critical and have an anxious personality.
Chris Miller: And you're also very sort, uh, of a perfectionist.
Annie Miller: I wouldn't say soreness. I would say I think it's gotten better over the years. But yes, very much. I would say that about myself as well.
Chris Miller: And I don't know if I'd call you perfectionist. I think maybe you have a high.
Annie Miller: Standard of excellence, perhaps. Uh, I do have perfectionistic tendencies. Okay. But it's not yeah, I think I've outgrown some of it because a lot of it was academic related. And what's funny is that, uh, with the academic stuff, I really loved school. Always did. When I was a kid, I remember having strep throat and crying because I couldn't go to school. And I really loved to learn throughout college. I just loved school. I loved it. Liked homework. Sounds silly. I actually miss having tests. Maybe it's because I miss I think and I don't know what this says about me, maybe it's that perfectionist in me, but I missed having a test and studying for something, and it was kind of a game for me, like, how well can I do on this test? And then when I get it back and did well, it's like, yes, I got so much satisfaction from it. Yeah.
Chris Miller: You get that dopamine hit.
Annie Miller: You get a dopamine hit, and it's a reward system. It's a reward system. And that's a little messed up, I.
Chris Miller: Think once it takes away from learning.
Annie Miller: Once it takes away from learning, and I'm grateful. My love of learning was really preserved through that. So maybe it wasn't. But about the public speaking, when I think about getting up on a stage when I was a freshman in college, I spoke to 500 people. I was in a speech. I was a finalist in a speech competition. When I think about doing that now, I want to pass out.
Chris Miller: Well, thinking about it is one thing.
Annie Miller: True. Thinking about it is one thing. And I guess it's all in the context. Right?
Chris Miller: Because you were nervous freshman year, too.
Annie Miller: I was nervous freshman year, but I yeah, I guess, uh, I i had given a speech in front of my own class a few times, like my classmates. I'd given it to a smaller crowd. When I was, like, a semifinalist, I'd prepped with my professor. You know, there was so much preparation involved. It's not like I just got up there.
Chris Miller: Right. Yeah. I did one of those oratory competitions yeah.
Annie Miller: At, uh, ucl.
Chris Miller: And I remember the opening tryouts did you do that? Where it was really small, but everybody would come up and give their speech, and there was a panel of judges.
Annie Miller: So ours was a little bit different. It was all of the 100 classes at Ku, which there were a lot of sections. There was one student from each class selected to just go to the first round. Then if you made it past the first round, you went to a second round within the same day. If you made it past that, I think you went to semifinals, UM, and then the finals. So it was a little bit different. Maybe it was not lower bar, but nobody in my class wanted to do it.
Chris Miller: Did the.
Annie Miller: Tas select? I think the Tas did have some say in it, but I remember nobody.
Chris Miller: In my class wanted to go through.
Annie Miller: So I think she'd asked for volunteers first, and if volunteers this is how it went. I think she asked for volunteers. And if people volunteered to give their speech in front of the class, and the class would vote, the people who didn't speak would vote to pick one person, and nobody raised their hand, and I was like, oh, my goodness, come on. So I raised my hand, and nobody else did. But then I had to compete from there on out. Uh right. So it was different.
Chris Miller: Yeah. What did you win in that?
Annie Miller: What did I win? Yeah. Uh, what place did I finish?
Chris Miller: Did you get anything? Money or scholarship?
Annie Miller: Honestly, I, uh, want to say I did get money. No, I don't remember. It was almost ten years ago, but I didn't do well in the finals.
Chris Miller: Yeah, well, shout out to, uh whenever I did the oratory competition, there was this guy. Who was so good, and he was on the football team and I liked him a lot. I wish I remembered his name right now, but I'm having a hard time recalling it.
Annie Miller: So wait, how did yours work? So you had to go in front of a panel for the first round.
Chris Miller: So ours was the mlk oratory competition. Okay. So each year there was a theme, and it would be a quote of Martin luther King's.
Annie Miller: Okay.
Chris Miller: Oh, cool. So then you take that quote, and then you have a five or ten minute speech. Mhm, I forget what the time frame was. And then you build that speech. You apply I think you've submitted electronically.
Annie Miller: Oh, like a written version or an outline or something. A video, I think.
Chris Miller: Oh, video. And then I think from there you audition. Mhm. Well, honestly, I don't think there's a video. I think you showed up and there's auditions. Sure. And then you had to get pushed through. Okay. And then once you got pushed through, I think you did it again. And then you got pushed through to the finals. And then the finals. It was three people. Okay. And it was sponsored by Enterprise Cars.
Annie Miller: Wow. So what did did you win anything? Did you win?
Chris Miller: I got some cash from Enterprise.
Annie Miller: Did you win first place?
Chris Miller: I didn't win first place. I won last place in the finals. But that's a big deal. Third place. But I was really grateful. I mean, you get money for speaking, right? And at some point that's a dream, just talking using your voice, and you get money for it. So that was really cool. I remember, uh, the quote was, let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred.
Annie Miller: Yeah, that's good.
Chris Miller: And I talked about Jane what's her name? The teacher, elementary school teacher.
Annie Miller: Oh, who did the blue eyes. Brown eyes, uh, brown eyes.
Chris Miller: Jane. And she broke the class up. Mhm. And then there was already, like, that inferiority complex just from what the teacher.
Annie Miller: Was telling the students. Yes. That social experiment in the classroom was very ahead of its time.
Chris Miller: Yeah. And those kids, whenever they felt like they were part of the inferior group, they would start to be nasty to one another. Yes. And then their test scores were actually more poor than the ones who were in the quote unquote, superior group. Jane Elliott. Jane elliott. Yeah. And it was crazy because it was a real life demonstration, an example of a group of people seeking to satisfy their thirst for freedom and for excellence. And they felt like they were cheated by being bitter or by being full of hatred. Uh and it happened in, like, a really small scope, but you see it happen on a grand scale historically, whenever it comes to issues like race. So mhm I talked about that, and one of the things that I had a problem with was this is silly, but just like, the way I use the microphone, I wasn't really used to the microphone. So small things like that were what kind of edged me out. I don't think I got third, but then again, I don't think I should have got third. Mhm, but then again, I'm quite competitive. The oratory competition was really cool. My favorite thing was being able to just prep and know that I'm about to speak in front of a whole bunch of people. And was I nervous?
Annie Miller: Yes, I was nervous, but probably exhilarating, right? Yes, it's a nervous excitement.
Chris Miller: My heart was beating out of my chest.
Annie Miller: Yeah, I used to love that feeling, and now I'm kind of scared of it.
Chris Miller: Well, you get into adrenaline dump at the end of adrenaline, you're writing.
Annie Miller: It true. I wish I could have seen you.
Chris Miller: Do you have a recording somewhere?
Annie Miller: I'd love to see it. We'll have to dig that up.
Chris Miller: I think it's with my undergrad email, and I think that's in the grave. But it was really cool. And I remember a buddy of mine came out to watch me, a whole group of friends of mine.
Annie Miller: That is so cool. And you were what year?
Chris Miller: Maybe a junior. The table was full of people and I remember my friend said, hey, you did so good.
Annie Miller: Oh, that's so cool.
Chris Miller: Yeah. And that meant a lot, and I think from there, that gave me a lot of confidence.
Annie Miller: Yeah.
Chris Miller: Heck yeah. And I just started getting into other things. The big thing for me was I went to undergrad studying kinesiology because I wanted to be an athletic trainer.
Annie Miller: Mhm because you're an athlete.
Chris Miller: I loved sports. Mhm and while I was in high school, I saw Derek Rose, who was such an incredible basketball player, he got injured, but he had just signed a huge deal with adidas. So adidas began to do this marketing campaign and they called it hashtag the Return. And the whole purpose of the campaign was to get Derek Rose back to being on the court and back to playing and just thinking about it as a business deal. Like in professional athletics. These big sports companies, they sign millions and millions of dollars of deals with whoever, and then that player sells their product. And the focus on this rehabilitation was really cool. And I started to think about it and I was like, man, I think it would be so cool to be a part of that process of getting people back to what they love. And that's sports for a lot of people. And if I could be just one little cog in that whole system and to help push that wheel, that would be so cool. Uh, so I went to Central Oklahoma, that's why, because they had a big program there. And a year in, I met with my advisor and I wasn't really feeling my program, though. Yeah. And he was like, he said something briefly about communication, mhm? He said, have you thought about interpersonal communication? And I was like, what's that? And he said, It's a major. And I'm like, what? I can study talking to people? So cool. Yeah. And he's like, yeah, you can. Yeah. So I was like, sign me up. Because I was a first generation college student. My parents hadn't done this before me and I didn't really have like my sister had gone to college, but she became a nurse, right.
Annie Miller: And she kind of went in on traditional route.
Chris Miller: She did her own thing, which like the medical side of the house. If you're not going to pursue medicine, it's kind of hard to borrow wisdom from that and help you. So I went to Liberal Arts Path. I started to study communication and my assignments were like, give a ten minute presentation. Mhm give a 15 minutes presentation. Yeah. I remember I pulled an allnighter before 45 minutes presentation.
Annie Miller: Oh my goodness. That would give me anxiety.
Chris Miller: Gave me a ton of anxiety, but the reps practicing and practicing and I was an ra, mhm, so I started to talk more, uh, because I was leading meetings and hosting events. And then I started getting involved in.
Annie Miller: College ministry and another great place to.
Chris Miller: Practice the communication, to communicate, and honestly, a great place for the voice in general, for sure, because I see a lot of really talented vocalists. Mhm like whitney Houston, who she started in the church. John Legend started in the church. But then you see all these great speakers who also start in the church. And I wouldn't say I started in the church, but it definitely was a big part of giving me more exposure. Oh, yeah. Because for one college ministry, I was the guy who was like, hey, we're so glad you're here. And I welcomed everybody. And it could be a small crowd of like 15 people all the way up to a lot more than that.
Annie Miller: And I feel like, not to interrupt, but what you just said right there, like, hey, we're so glad you're here. That describes your not only a skill that you have as a communicator and being able to welcome people and interact with people, but also who you are as just a person. It's like your skills and your personality combined.
Chris Miller: Yeah, it's quite nice, uh, whenever you think about it, like, how fitting that was for me. Yes. Because the goal that I have for communication is to reveal or, uh, remind people of their value. And sometimes it's not reminding them of their value. They don't even know.
Annie Miller: Right.
Chris Miller: So it's revealing their value to them. In order for me to do that, I have to have an inherent belief that everyone has value, uh, which I do. And that's due to faith, but it's also just due to my temperament. I think I've just been wired to see people as really important and that they matter a lot.
Annie Miller: Faith aside, really quickly, I think because of all the different kinds of people you've met, some are, uh, believers and fall of faith and some don't. And just a wide range of people, all different kinds of people you met, I think, also reinforces your idea that everybody has inherent value and you've got to see that in such a wide range.
Chris Miller: Yeah, totally. Like, going to the university was so helpful for me. I read things about the depreciating value of a liberal arts degree. Mhm, or how much is college worth it? Is it worth the debt? Is it worth this? Is it worth that? I think one thing that was really beneficial to me was having access to so many people in one place that I didn't have access to. Absolutely. And I remember I was a freshman, a sophomore, and there was an activities fair. It's like all these groups.
Annie Miller: Yeah. Like right at the beginning of the year, right.
Chris Miller: Trying to get just people involved in what they want to get involved in. And I walked past this table and it was this woman, and she had these necklaces with penises and boobs and all of these different body parts on the table. And I was like, what the heck? And she said, yeah, we're the pagan Society and we're celebrating a fertility dance. And I was like, huh? And it was just so far the left field that I just started to think about like, oh my gosh, there's really a lot going on here. And the more and more I met people, the more I realized all of the nuances and all of the variety that people have. um, I didn't attend the dance. I didn't really feel like that was for me.
Annie Miller: Yeah, but hey, kudos to her for showing up.
Chris Miller: Hey, she's showing up. She got the jewelry made. I don't know if it was handmade.
Annie Miller: Or how she made.
Chris Miller: Definitely homemade. You never know. But the cool thing about college is showing up and seeing all the different people with the college ministry. Another thing was I was always involved in my church, and I was a leader for the youth and I was in the college ministry, and that gave me more opportunities to talk. Mhm. So whenever I look back historically, that's whenever things start to build up where I'm like, hey, I can use my voice for sure. And it's just like soccer. Like, I loved soccer so much growing up. If I want to learn how to if I'm right footed, curve the ball to the right that I need to kick with the outside of my foot, and I need to do it a thousand times to get really good at it. And with speaking, it's like, okay, I need to do it a thousand times to get really good at it. That's kind of like the podcast as well, just to practice on the interpersonal side of the house. So it's not public speaking, but it's that, uh, interpersonal, one on one, maybe two on two, whatever it looks like.
Annie Miller: It's kind of like mass interpersonal, which is the actual term. I didn't make that up, but it's taken an interpersonal interaction in a more public medium.
Chris Miller: Medium mhm.
Annie Miller: So once I publish it yeah, exactly. So that's kind of cool, too. What I wanted to ask you, did you want to say anything else on that note? Because I didn't want to get too far without saying this, but you were talking about helping people realize their value. And helping people maybe it's not necessarily you helping them realize, but through talking to them and asking them very thoughtful questions. That's something you are really good at, is asking questions. And you're so thoughtful in the questions that you ask. It's not just when people say like, oh, how are you? And it's like, good. How are you? Of course you engage in small talk like every other human on planet Earth. But your questions are very intentional. And so I think that helps people, I think through you asking those thoughtful questions and people really having to think through their responses, it's kind of like, oh yeah, I do know what I'm talking about. Or I am unique. The way that you ask questions, the way that you make people feel, is really special. And I love that that's what you're doing with this podcast is you're giving people the opportunity to engage in a conversation and maybe not necessarily for the soul. I know your mission here isn't to have everybody leave feeling like they have a better sense of their value, but through your meaningful interaction with them. I think that is a sub goal or, um, a byproduct of what you have going on here. So I've been really excited to watch you build this and to see you engage with other people and interact in such a thoughtful way.
Chris Miller: Yeah, I think that questions are very valuable. They're very valuable.
Annie Miller: Very, very valuable.
Chris Miller: And thoughtful ones. Thoughtful ones. If you have a thoughtful question, that is. So I feel like I'm being limited by my language right now. I'm having a hard time explaining it. A thoughtful question will do so much.
Annie Miller: It will do so much. And I think we've all been in situations I know you and I have recently, and we've talked about it and processed it together. I think we come from a place where because we studied communication not just at an undergrad level, but a master's level, too. I think you and I feel very tied to that identity. Am I right in saying that about communicator? Yeah. Maybe not studying it, but being a communicator, being a good communicator, just not because of the accolades or I guess what it means to be a good communicator, but the end result of that. Really good relationships with people, really good interactions, actually, they don't always go well, you could be a very well prepared communicator. This is what I'm getting to. You could be a really great communicator and know all the studies and know all the tips and tricks and how to be in interaction and still walk away and like, well, that was a doozy. Uh, and this brings me to questions recently we were in a situation where we were interacting with uh, people and not one time did they ask a question or one that I remember. I don't remember them asking a question. And so that's like, we walked away kind of like kind of feeling a little low, I guess. Or maybe I'll speak for myself. A little low, like huh. They didn't ask any questions. And it's not because I'm counting how many questions people are asking, but it's asking questions, signals to somebody. You care about them or you care about the conversation.
Chris Miller: Yeah. Well, it's hard whenever you're talking to somebody and you feel like there's no reciprocity.
Annie Miller: That's it. Which is a key to any type of relationship. There has to be reciprocity. There has to be that is that literally reciprocity is part of what defines a relationship. Because somebody, uh let's take an example of somebody you interact with the cashier. We'll go back to the cashier.
Chris Miller: Yeah.
Annie Miller: Who's scanning things? Who's scanning things? And you make small talk with them. Is that a relationship? The way that communication relationships, I guess, interpersonal relationships is defined is an ongoing, repeated exchanges reciprocity. Like there has to be reciprocity for there to be a relationship. Yeah. It has to be kind of an ongoing thing. So all that to say when there is a lack of reciprocity, that can really strain a, uh, relationship, whether it's romantic, friend, family yeah.
Chris Miller: Mhm. There's a word for maybe, you know, it but that feeling we get when we feel like we have a relationship.
Annie Miller: With a celebrity oh, it's a parasocial relationship.
Chris Miller: Parasocial relationship, right. Like we know everything about them, but.
Annie Miller: They'Ve never even such a weird phenomena.
Chris Miller: It's the exact opposite of, uh, reciprocity. Yes. To the greatest extent.
Annie Miller: Yes. That's a great example. It's the stark difference we're all putting something in.
Chris Miller: So I think one of the most important things is whenever you are asking a question, there are conversational scripts to follow. Yeah. Right. And typically, the better you get to know somebody, the more you disclose and the questions you ask begin to become a little more personal.
Annie Miller: Yeah. It's like it's not to go back to the theory. I mean, the theory doesn't matter for people listening to this are like, I don't care what the theory is. The onion. You peel back the layers of an onion and as you get to know the person more and disclose more yourself by disclosing more yourself I mean, it doesn't always work. Eye for an eye. Exactly. But the idea is if you disclose, the other person is more likely to disclose. And I think we can all think of scenarios where that happened, like that tracks in our own relationships. And so with the onion, you peel back the layers. The more you get to know somebody, the more personal, um, the questions will be. The more specific, the more, um, maybe more of the private information that you don't share with somebody on social media. So as you get to know them more, you peel back those layers.
Chris Miller: Yeah. And the cool thing about that is every onion is different, and some people will pull back those layers differently. And I know a friend of ours jokes, he's from Miami, and he jokes that people in the midwest are much different than in Miami. He says in the midwest, you can get to know somebody for years and you know a little bit about them and they're really polite and everything, but you really don't know that much about them. And then he said, in Miami, you know somebody for ten minutes and you know their whole life and you know everything. Yeah. And it's not the case for every person in Miami or every person in the midwest, but it goes to show that disclosure and the peeling back of the layers is different. That's a great point. And different people will have different layers at different times. Right. Like, I could talk to you about maybe socio and economic background whenever I was young, mhm, and somebody else. That may be something that's really near and dear to them because maybe they have an identity tag to that, or maybe there's something else going on so they may not talk to you about that whenever you get to know them at all.
Annie Miller: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. That's why I think it's important. It's not always going to be, I disclose this, so you disclose that on the same topic. But it's the pattern of disclosure, the pattern of that relationship to usually follow when you get to know somebody. Yeah, we don't have to talk about it. I feel like I'm boring people, but.
Chris Miller: No, you're not boring people because it's important.
Annie Miller: It is important. And at the end of the day, I think the reason why you're doing this podcast, the reason why I studied what I did, but also the way that we just live our lives is relationships matter. At the end of the day, it's not what you have that you're going to remember. um, it's the people you were with, the memories you made. And let's go back to this round table that we're sitting at, how the many moments we've had this table full and people around it and how special that is. Money can't buy that. So at the end of the day, relationships matter and learning. There are so many tools and practical applications of these ideas that people have researched that could help everybody in their relationships. And I feel very passionate about that. And I know you do too.
Chris Miller: Yeah, we're a good match there was a brief moment where I was thinking about printing off shirts and on the front it would just say, Talk to people mhm because it's such a good.
Annie Miller: Reminder can we talk about that for a second? Yeah, because I know this podcast is supposed to be just long form conversations that people can listen to, but I think because this is the first one, I think it's worth taking a few minutes to talk about how you came to this name of the podcast, which.
Chris Miller: Is connected to the shirts you and I were pre dating. This was before we were officially dating, and I had visited your location of residence.
Annie Miller: My apartment?
Chris Miller: That sounds so fishy location of residence? It was on the 8th floor 7th, 7th floor and you have this grand window beautiful and outside the window you could see the expressway mhm okay, am I doing a bad job describing it?
Annie Miller: Kind of you couldn't see the from one side, you could see a corner of the expressway. Uh, it sounds like I was just staring at a highway. I could see the Carolina pines like I could see pine trees out my window. And you had a nice view at.
Chris Miller: A great view, but you could still see the highway because I had asked you a question and I think the reason why I asked you the question.
Annie Miller: Was because of the highway, maybe, or just that busy road that's neither here nor there.
Chris Miller: Because I said if there were a billboard that was going to be seen by millions of people and you were responsible for what was on that billboard.
Annie Miller: No, you asked me if I could put anything in my window. Oh, wow. Yeah, you asked me if you could put, like, a message in this window for everybody to see who was driving by yeah, uh, because of where it was, the location, what would it say? Right, and you said and I said I sat there for a minute and first of all, you put me on the spot. Second of all, major crush on you. I was like, oh, gosh, I got to think about something. And I said, well, it probably would be live laugh, love yeah, I bet there are. How many people have found a sign like that at hobby Lobby or michael's or homegoods? Because it's such a good I see you. Raise your hand. I see you. It's such a good phrase live fully, laugh a lot, love deeply. Love deeply. If I could go to hobby Lobby and just add a few words onto the end of the live, laugh, love but I said that and, uh it's so cliche years later, I'm like, yeah, I mean, would I change what I say in the window if somebody were to ask me that? Maybe, but I still feel like live, laugh, love live fully, laugh a lot, love deeply what more could you ask for? Yeah. And so then I turn the question back to Chris, and I said to you, because you didn't have that window, I was like, so if you had a billboard that everybody could see, what would it say?
Chris Miller: And I said, talk to people.
Annie Miller: And he said, Talk to people. And I laughed at first, and I'm like, huh. Okay. But the more I got to know you and thinking about it now, retroactively, it's like, yeah, that is Chris Miller in a nutshell. Talk to people. And I remember when we were first dating, we were wait, this is still predating actually, I was meeting you at the library at Wake, and it was right before school started, like the spring semester, and was meeting you there because you were working on something and you told me where you were. You were in like a study room. And so I went to that study room and I saw your backpack and I saw your stuff and I was like, huh? So I waited for a few minutes thinking that you were in the restroom or something, a few minutes go by and I'm like, well, maybe he's got bad tummy or maybe he's somewhere else. And then it clicked. I'm like, he's talking with somebody. And so I went to the starbucks inside the library and sure enough, you were talking to Paul. Shout out to Paul. Shout out to Paul.
Chris Miller: Really cool guy.
Annie Miller: Super cool guy. But so I feel like that to talk to people. The essence of that maps on to you perfectly. So I love that story and I love it's. Come full circle with this podcast and all the cool conversations you've had with people that you're going to have with people. I'm so excited for you.
Chris Miller: I'm super excited too. Yeah. Because the ability to talk to people, the opportunity to talk to people, all the people I'm imagining, everybody who came home to that apartment complex and a lot of them were coming home from work, they may have been stressed out. You lived right by a big hospital.
Annie Miller: So a lot of them were residents.
Chris Miller: Residents, medical professionals, mhm. And it's so important to talk to people about what's going on in your life. Getting to know themselves, their stories, what's happening. The stuff you're going through feels a lot less weighty when you share with others. There's a lot of power whenever you wrap words around what you're dealing with. And as we were talking about earlier, we make meaning through our language. Yes. And our world is limited by what we can say. Mhm. And if we can't describe it, then oftentimes it's almost as if we're not even feeling it. One of the most helpless feelings is knowing there's something going on inside of.
Annie Miller: You that you can't communicate it that yes. Agree with that. And feeling misunderstood.
Chris Miller: And feeling misunderstood. Like I'm reading The atlas of the Heart by brene Brown. Right now. And she talks about an example where imagine you break your arm or imagine you have this pain in your back and it's this excruciating pain. And every time you go and you stand up, you can't even do anything because this pain is so debilitating. And you finally get to go to the doctor's, and once you're in the doctor's office, your mouth seizes up and you can't point. So all of a sudden you're feeling all of this pain from your back, but there's no way to express it. And, uh, how that's one of the most hopeless and defeating feelings and aggravating. Super aggravating. So I think if you can wrap your words around what's going on, if you talk to people about it, it's, uh, going to help out a lot.
Annie Miller: Yeah. And there's a reason that people I mean, hey, look up the Harvard Happiness Study. The people with the strongest relationships, really satisfying, meaningful relationships, and days when people experienced greater physical pain, they still were really highly rated on, um, the happiness measure.
Chris Miller: Yeah. And they experienced less pain.
Annie Miller: And they experienced less pain. Yes. objectively. So when they ranked yes. When they rated higher objective pain, they experienced it. It did help them with their pain or with whatever, what was going on. Those relationships, to me, they lived longer. They lived longer. There's a really cool study. There are these researchers that study wound healing people with stronger relationships. I should fact check this. I know there are these researchers, I know their names. um, so I know these studies exist. But the people with stronger relationships and better interpersonal dynamics, their wounds heal faster. Isn't that crazy? It makes sense. Uh, it makes sense. So if there's not enough evidence already in just the feel good rush of dopamine and adrenaline and whatever else serotonin.
Chris Miller: I don't know.
Annie Miller: All of those chemicals that you feel when you leave a really good interaction or you leave just kind of on a high from being around people and connecting with somebody. If that isn't evidence enough, there is empirical research to back up the importance of relationships in people's lives.
Chris Miller: Yeah. Mhm. It matters a lot. And a big component of that is asking questions. So whenever you are talking to people, ask questions. Yeah. That doesn't mean just go talk to people and tell them your favorite baseball card and tell them why. Cool. That's awesome that you're disclosing and being vulnerable and opening yourself up. But if you're not going out there and giving the opportunity for others to do the same, then you lose the reciprocity, you lose the conversational alignment. And then all of a sudden, it's just a soliloquy, it's not a conversation. So, um, the questions are a big piece, but I imagine we know there are people who have a really hard time talking to people.
Annie Miller: Oh my goodness. Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned that.
Chris Miller: It's completely fine. Yes. You are not alone. Talking to people can be really tough because human interaction is unpredictable. We can't plan it's not like we have robots all around us. Yeah. We can tell siri to do certain things, and siri will do certain things. mhm. But with people, the beauty of all of this is it's unpredictable. Right? Yeah. And that's what makes something like this special, is that whatever we record and publish, it's one in a million.
Annie Miller: It's out there, baby.
Chris Miller: It's out there. And it's something that people get to see. And had I eaten, what, mac and cheese and chicken tinders an hour before this, then I'd probably be a bit lethargic. And I may not have this in mind, so the conversation will be different.
Annie Miller: But, uh, you're fueled on chicken pot pie.
Chris Miller: But I'm fueled on homemade chicken pot pie by the very best you and it tastes absolutely so delicious.
Annie Miller: You're such a great cook.
Chris Miller: Thanks, Chris. I'm very grateful for that. But I mean, annie, you started this off by saying you have social anxiety. Yeah. How does one overcome social anxiety?
Annie Miller: Oh, quite well. counseling. Yeah, no, I'm a firm believer in counseling. Yeah. Social anxiety. Let me actually back up and say that I'm really glad you mentioned hey. Communicating and interacting with people, it's not easy. And I will also say I think it's important to put it out there so it doesn't seem like we're just coming from our high horses, talking about how important is we've been in uncomfortable interactions all the time. All the time. And we are not the best communicators that we could be very often. And even people who have studied this much longer than we have or have practiced it much longer than we have, nobody bats 100%. Uh, 100%. Nobody bats 100%.
Chris Miller: So I don't know baseball that well.
Annie Miller: I think it's nobody bats a thousand. Right, right. Yeah. Nobody bats a thousand. So we can cut 100%, but so I think that's important. But yeah. Social anxiety. I talked about this a little bit earlier. I've lived with a little social anxiety lately, more so than I have. I think about junior high, annie, and I know we look back and we kind of block out the more negative things. I just look back on junior junior high, annie, in 7th and 8th grade, I don't think I had social anxiety. I was pretty confident in myself for a junior high kid. I did my thing. I didn't care. Not that I didn't care, like, I was, like, willy nilly, whatever. UM, I mean, I was so confident in being who I was, I didn't feel peer pressured. I was okay with being kind of sweet, naive annie. I didn't feel pressures, and I don't feel pressures now. But I'm saying it's arguably one of the most insecure times in people's lives. Like junior high. Right. You're going through puberty acne. Middle school is tough. Middle school is tough. But I look back and I'm like, UM, no, I didn't feel that way. So cut two. I'm 26 and I'm living with some social anxiety, which this is what I was going to say before, is it can be situational. Everybody has situational social anxiety at times where it's like, oh, that was weird.
Chris Miller: Yeah, it's a spidey sense.
Annie Miller: It's a spidey sense. For some people, though, social anxiety can be a little bit more than that. It can be so I live with more generalized anxiety. That's a part of me. UM, my baseline tends to be a little bit more anxious. Not necessarily with social things, but for some people, that is their baseline. Like, just baseline nervous about interacting with people. And hey, keep on showing up, because you probably walk away feeling like, oh, gosh, that was terrible. They probably think I'm stupid, or what did I even say? You are always remember you're much harder on yourself than other people. And most of the time, I found that people who will say to me later on, like, oh, goodness, I had so much social anxiety, I'm like, I couldn't even tell.
Chris Miller: Yeah, you crushed it.
Annie Miller: Yeah, you crushed it. So to all those people who are sitting here listening to this, like, I have thousands of people, hopefully thousands of people, but anybody listening who's like, yeah, easy for you to say, keep showing up, because chances are you're doing great.
Chris Miller: And that's the biggest part, is showing up.
Annie Miller: And that's the biggest part, showing up. There's something to that. Fake it till you make it, too. Which I don't say fake it, like deceive people, but kind of play the part right. Sometimes it helps if you just I mean, there are times when I look in the mirror and I'm like, annie, you've got this. But I'm having a really anxious day. And that helps. But social, uh, anxiety. Yeah. So we were saying how to overcome it. Hey, I think if you have situational social anxiety, that's normal. Just keep on pushing through, keep on keeping on. Know that everybody has those moments. Even if you do have more of the chronic baseline social anxiety, same thing. Keep showing up, keep pushing through. I'm also a big fan of counseling, so I want to say that, too, because I don't want it to sound like, oh, just keep trying. It's like some people who would hear like, oh, just keep trying, and social interactions are like, oh, my gosh, I do keep trying it. It's still so hard.
Chris Miller: Yeah. And there's the anxious, the emotional response. We have mhm. Susan David, Harvard professor, talks about it being a beacon and a barrier. There are moments where we feel like it's such a barrier, but for the most part, it's a beacon. It's communicating something to us. Yeah. And if we're feeling anxious about a certain thing, then there's something there. And a lot of times, like, further investigation, UM, we're able to learn something from that.
Annie Miller: Yeah. And it's amazing. I love that. I think that's really insightful. Another thing, too, is with anxiety that I've learned over the years is that your body can misinterpret signals in the brain, UM, and just in your body as something negative when they're not. So I was talking about how when we were talking about the speech, UM, the oratory competition that you were in, and we were talking about how exhilarating it is before you get up there and speak. I felt that way when I was in theater, before the curtain would come up. That rush of excitement. Like, I'm about to stand on stage in front of a lot of people and do this thing, but I'm really excited and a little nervous. But that kind of it helps propel you, right? It's like it gives you a little fuel, a little motivation to do it. Sometimes, though, you could have those same feelings, and it be in a positive, uh and I guess this is where for me, sometimes I get a little panicky, but I misinterpret the feeling of excitement for panic, or even when I'm on the treadmill, sometimes, like, I'm running and my heart rate gets up and I'm like, this feels like a panic attack, but it's really just my body doing what it's supposed to be doing on the treadmill. So it's the way we interpret the physiological response to something I think also matters.
Chris Miller: The interpretation is so important. Uh, have you heard about the I've heard this before. And it's the evolutionary biological explanation for public speaking fear with this idea of historically, whenever we were speaking in front of a large group of people huh. Then we were essentially pleading our case. And how the setting was like a trial of some sort back in the day. And I'm completely out of my field here, but it's interesting to me, so I'll butcher it. UM, if you were a caveman or something, and you find yourself talking in front of a whole bunch of people, mhm, something's gone awry, and you are trying to persuade them, or you are trying to present something that makes sense. Yeah. Like your case. Oh, that makes total sense. And why we would have a fight or flight response to that, because it's fascinating. We're essentially fighting verbally. Right. We're presenting our case, UM, in a waiting trial.
Annie Miller: That's fascinating. I actually have not heard that. But it makes sense. Those pieces of the evolutionary perspective on things is so interesting to me. Super interesting. That just got me thinking about it. I should have mentioned this earlier, but the idea of, UM, bonds in relationships and interaction, specifically, the one I find really interesting, is gossip. So there's this idea evolutionarily communicate bond belong theory, in case anybody wants to check it out. Gossip, uh, used to be really beneficial back when it was like cave men and women. It used to be really beneficial because the more that you gossiped. You bonded with people. It had a bonding mechanism, which didn't just mean bonding for enjoyment of hanging out together, it meant protection. It meant survival. Yeah. And so gossip is, in this day and age, can be very negative. It can be very negative and perpetuate, really unhealthy.
Chris Miller: Especially with mass communication.
Annie Miller: Especially with mass communication. But aka social media. Aka social media. M. Yeah, that's true. Uh, just how readily we can communicate and pass things along to people more easily and more quickly. I think that's just the nature of all the different ways we communicate now. But it's fascinating to think about it that way. Like the tendency kind of is to gossip. And if you look a little deeper, there's a reason why. And also, gossip doesn't have to be a negative thing. It can be talking about positive things. We just don't call it gossip then, I guess.
Chris Miller: Yeah. UM, it's the, UM social glue. Yeah, it's the social glue. It brings people together. And I think another part of social anxiety is the spotlight effect. And oftentimes whenever we are somewhere where there's a lot of people mhm. And we do something, we feel like there's a spotlight on us and everybody's watching us. Yeah. When in all reality, nobody's that's not the case.
Annie Miller: No. I'm glad you redirected back.
Chris Miller: Sorry. No, no need to apologize. It was something that I thought of, mhm. That I think ties into the evolutionary side of the house is we are constantly thinking about our own school sized kingdom oh, yeah. And like, what's happening in the skull sized kingdom of ours and what did we do? But next to you, that person who you think saw you just actually spit your gum out, they are trying to figure out how they're going to pay off their $500 Toyota subaru outback bill.
Annie Miller: Totally. I love the specificity of that. Which reminds me of a phobia I had that I'm laughing about. You were there.
Chris Miller: Were you tripped up Sean stick?
Annie Miller: I trip. You knew. Exactly. I shout out to Sean. I was meeting chris's friend Sean for the first time when we were at his parents house. Beautiful home, nice people, super, very welcoming. But it's like, here I am in Oklahoma meeting all these meetings, making the rounds, right. And we go to sean's house and it's wintertime, so I had been wearing boots or something and I had these nice socks on. And we were going up the steps and I slipped on sean's steps and everybody was like, oh, are you okay?
Chris Miller: In that moment, everyone was watching you.
Annie Miller: Everyone was watching me. But then it was like they moved on.
Chris Miller: I didn't exactly that's another thing, is like, we think everyone's watching us with the fact but even if everyone were, everyone would move on.
Annie Miller: They move on. You were talking to Sean today. Okay. The slip was three years ago. You were talking to Sean today. And the first thing I thought of was me slipping going up the steps, and I think I just felt like a big ogre slipping up the stairs. You had a big, ugly ogre. Right.
Chris Miller: Okay. I don't know why you got to say ugly.
Annie Miller: It's just an ogre. They're not really cute. Uh, I didn't feel cute. I did not feel cute when I slipped going up the steps.
Chris Miller: You did it in a really cute way, though.
Annie Miller: Oh, thanks, Chris. But it just goes to show they moved on. Sean probably doesn't even remember that. In fact, I think I told him once, like a year or two later, I was like, Sean, I still keep thinking about when I slipped going up your steps. He was like, oh. He didn't even remember it.
Chris Miller: Yeah, it was like you had to cry.
Annie Miller: I had to really jog his memory.
Chris Miller: Yeah. So whenever you're talking to someone, a lot of what goes on in our head doesn't even actually take place. It doesn't come to fruition.
Annie Miller: And people don't care that much.
Chris Miller: Yeah, people don't care that much.
Annie Miller: No. My mom has this great rule. Uh, what is it? Have you heard of it? It's like 510, 2030 or something like that.
Chris Miller: It's like if something happened ten minutes ago and you're still thinking of 5.
Annie Miller: Seconds later, well, it's like, okay, it can be in the context of something happening or worrying about something. Like, in five days, will this matter? Maybe M, but not as much as today. In ten years will this matter? No, it probably won't matter. In 20 years, will this matter? Now? I probably won't even remember it's, like, all in perspective, me slipping up sean's, even though it's three years later and I still think about it. That's a default of mine or that's a defect, UM, that says something about myself and maybe a moment of insecurity. The why I still remember it, I don't know. And you think it's funny? Okay, now I'm laughing at it. Yes. It's less of that and more funny. Right. But humor humor can also be a protective mechanism. Like self deprecating humor.
Chris Miller: Yeah, humor is really interesting.
Annie Miller: Humor is very fascinating.
Chris Miller: Especially when it comes to the interacting with people. Yes. Because humor is a really, really weird weird is not the proper term.
Annie Miller: Really intriguing. Well, it's very what's the right way to yeah, this is where we're stumping. It's hard to wrap words around it. You know, the idea of neuroplasticity in your brain is so it can flex and change and you can rewire your brain. Maybe flexible or versatile is the right way to describe this. But humor is so flexible and versatile. You can use it for a lot of different reasons. You can use it just for like, pure enjoyment, bonding, protective mechanism. You can use it for a lot of different use it in different ways for different purposes.
Chris Miller: Yeah, humor is super versatile. There's so much you can do with it, and it is a main pillar for social interactions. Like someone who's funny, someone who can make someone laugh. Yeah.
Annie Miller: It's priceless. Yeah. So I do want to I know we're kind of running out of time here. I got to get to my hallmark and popcorn.
Chris Miller: Hallmark and Popcorn.
Annie Miller: Deadline. I am going to make popcorn tonight, but I'm not on a deadline. But I know that we need to wrap it up. So what I want to say to you, Chris, and this is your podcast, so you can then have the last word. But talking about humor, talking about just showing up and always remembering to keep going for the social interactions and keeping it all in perspective, I hope all of that is encouraging to you in this new venture, that you are so funny, so let your humor shine. You're so good at talking to people, so really show up in the conversations, even when it feels like you're tired or the energy is off. Like, you just know that you're a really good communicator and that somebody even if it's I've said this before, what's so cool about this podcast is that it's not about how many listeners you have or how many followers you have. It's about what's taking place right here and right now, the conversation you're having. So keeping that all in perspective, I hope that is so encouraging for you. And if you have a moment where you have a faux paw, like slipping up the stairs, but not that, because it's not going to be physical. It's going to be part of an interaction. Nobody's going to remember that. Just keep moving on, keep moving forward. And I'm really excited for you. It's been neat to see you through this process. Say, hey, we've talked about you doing a podcast, uh, for a long time. And then more recently, you were like, I think I want to do a podcast. And you had this natural opportunity with timing to start one, and you found the equipment. You drove down to tulsa. You brought braxton with you to go to this guy's house. Rule number one, don't go to someone's house to pick up something from Facebook Marketplace. But anyhow, you showed up. You had your friend with you. You bought the equipment. You brought it back to Kansas. I remember you laid it all out. You were fiddling with things and trying to figure out software, and there was a fuzz for a while. Uh, you've come so far. You've taught yourself. You didn't take a class on this. You've been so great with your resources, and I couldn't be more happy and excited for you as you launch this sucker.
Chris Miller: Amen. annie, thank you for all that. It's not a mistake that I married you because you're incredibly supportive and I love you a lot, and what better?
Annie Miller: First guest to have. Thank you. I hope to be a repeat guest.
Chris Miller: Yeah. What do you think?
Annie Miller: Maybe 202.
Chris Miller: UM, maybe 1357-1357. huh? Well, four times within the first ten. Yeah. Hey, shout out to you.
Annie Miller: No, thank you. I do hope to be back. In all seriousness, uh, whenever you'll have me.
Chris Miller: And I think you're going to be a heavily requested guest.
Annie Miller: Thank you, Chris. Well, I'm excited for you. Thank you for this conversation. I love you. And cue the music.
Chris Miller: Right? I love you.
Annie Miller: Mutual. Cue the outro.
Chris Miller: We will see you next time, folks.
Annie Miller: See you next time. Boom, boom. See you.