#10 - Championing Financial Literacy for Student Athletes in NIL [PAT BROWN]

Chris Miller: Okay, well, that means you're officially live at the dining room studio.
Pat Brown: Awesome.
Chris Miller: Yeah. You get to see it at the Humble beginnings.
Pat Brown: I like it. I like humble beginnings.
Chris Miller: Yeah, me too. It starts somewhere. And I know I hadn't met you at the basketball. You were balling up on everybody.
Pat Brown: That's how I do. That's what I do. I know, I'm joking. It's funny you mentioned basketball. I tell my wife this all the time. Basketball, uh, is one of those things that you can tell a person and how they are in life by the way they play basketball. So if you have a person that calls a bunch of ticky tack fouls, typically that person is going to be kind of ticky tack in life. Or if you have someone that's just a person that gets along, that's, uh, typically how they are off the court. And so a lot of my friends that I end up meeting, I meet typically throughout basketball. I've met my doctors in the basketball group that we play in the mornings. Um, everyone from my knee doctor to my eye doctor to my dentist. Um, a number of friends that I've met just through basketball. So basketball, I think, is just not just from a sport ah. And just getting a shape. But it's just a great way to meet people.
Chris Miller: Yeah, it is. I think a lot of people have a hard time meeting people.
Pat Brown: Mhm.
Chris Miller: And it's funny because we have all the technology that makes it easier than ever before, but actually getting to know people is tough and sports is one of the easiest ways for me to do that.
Pat Brown: Absolutely.
Chris Miller: Yeah. And I'm not the best Hooper, but what I do is I show up buckets.
Pat Brown: What are you talking about?
Chris Miller: I had a couple of buckets. And it's funny, whenever you send people who call Tikki Tech Mouse, I thought of a couple of people.
Pat Brown: There you go. So it comes to mind, right? It resonates with you. Yeah, absolutely.
Chris Miller: And I think we can both think of the same people, but no comment. Yeah, they're not here, so no comment. How long have you been in Lawrence, Kansas?
Pat Brown: I've been in Lawrence, Kansas since, uh, 94. August of 90. 94. Came out here under, uh, football scholarship to Ku and stayed, uh, I met my wife, future wife, and stayed here, you know, got married, had the 2.4 kids, one and a half dog and white picket fence and been here ever since.
Chris Miller: Dang, where did you grow up?
Pat Brown: Ohio.
Chris Miller: Ohio?
Pat Brown: The Buckeye state. Yeah.
Chris Miller: How'd you find Ku?
Pat Brown: Well, Ku, I tell you, with football, I was extremely naive. And what I mean by that, I didn't want to play football. I want to play basketball. I love basketball. Uh, I played football because my friends played. I call it the forest Gump mentality. I just played because my friends played. And what ended up happening was a little bit bigger. A little bit faster. But um, again, just naive about football. They basically gave me the ball and said, run this way. Very, uh, forest gump like. And so I did that and I started getting attention for football and uh, not as much for basketball. And I remember my mom came in one day and basically she was trying to relay the message that, listen, football may be the option to go because of um, where it can take you from a university standpoint. So, of course, I'm a momma's boy. So I listened to my mom and came out here to Kansas. I thought, if anything, I can walk onto the men's basketball program because, uh, Kansas at the time and still is obviously one of the best programs out there. Um, but uh, once I got here, I remember talking to the coach, coach as at, uh, Washington. He was with Roy Williams staff at the time. I remember sitting down with him and he mentioned that, well, they've had conversations with our coaching staff, which was Coach Mason at the time. And basically they wanted us to prove ourselves on the football field before we could try out for basketball. And I thought it didn't make sense. I'm going to be red shirt, I'm not going to even be able to play, so I can't prove myself. Having said that, once I went through the, uh, workouts for football, like there's no way, I don't know how people do it that play both football and basketball. But at that point I was done. My body is just so beat up. And so I was like, oh, well, I'll just be a fan of basketball.
Chris Miller: Basketball. When you went football, that's when I went football.
Pat Brown: That's right. And then I love I enjoyed it's. Funny, because in high school, like I said, was so nice about football. I didn't understand it. I didn't understand the terminology, the verbiage, uh, the plays, the strategy, any of that. Like I said, they just gave me the ball and I ran on defense at that time because I was a little bit faster. I could make up for the lack of knowledge. So I didn't understand cover two. I didn't understand any of that stuff. So fast forward, I get to, uh, Ku and uh, my freshman year, they're throwing just so much jargon and verbiage. Get back into the flat, get back into the curl alignment. I mean, just all the stuff that I had no idea. And I was like, wow. And of course, as time went on, I started to learn and become a student of the game. So I love football now, but back then not so much.
Chris Miller: You were relying on essentially raw athleticism.
Pat Brown: That's it. That's all it was. All it was.
Chris Miller: Then there are people who are on the other side of the house who may not be the most athletic, but they know everything.
Pat Brown: Yeah, they know everything. So now when I watch football. I do watch it differently now. Even when a play is developing, I can kind of see, okay, well, this is probably going to be a screen or third and long, so it's probably going to be this. So it's interesting and it's, uh, satisfying to watch it now versus again years ago when I didn't know anything about it. Yeah.
Chris Miller: Was Ohio to Kansas at culture shock.
Pat Brown: Or similar It's very similar. Um, for me, it was very similar. Speaking for myself, Ohio State, I didn't get necessarily that much attention from Ohio State. It's a bigger university than the University of Kansas. I may buy a lot, but I felt right at home once I got here, so, um, there was no complaints. Plus, Kansas have free cable.
Chris Miller: That's right. I read that at the Towers. Right.
Pat Brown: At the towers. That's right. Free cable is like, what do I sign?
Chris Miller: Um, that's so funny.
Pat Brown: It didn't take a lot to get me here.
Chris Miller: Yeah. To think about all of the things some of the universities do. They really roll out the red carpet.
Pat Brown: Yeah.
Chris Miller: And you're like free cable.
Pat Brown: That's right.
Chris Miller: Then we sign up. And showing up to Ku, I know I left the state, uh, to go to grad school. Whenever I was an undergrad, I stayed in state, but I was homesick every now and then. Were you homesick a lot, or were you pretty good at, um, transitioning?
Pat Brown: I think for the most part I was pretty good. Uh, to hear my mother tell us, she'd probably say something different, like, I was crying home every day. No, um, I think for the most part, it was pretty good. I think football was the thing that obviously could distract because you're constantly on the go, whether it's winter, conditioning, spring, you're, uh, always on the go. And so once I got here, you end up kind of meeting your tribe, if you will. Uh, which, if you play defense, most likely you're going to hang around with defensive players. If you're playing linebacker, most likely you're going to hang around a bunch of linebackers. And so met my little crew, if you will. And, um, it was just a good time. I have fun with everyone on defensive side of the ball and in the offense as well, which you've seen my personality on a basketball court. So it doesn't take a lot for me to get along with someone. It was a good time for me.
Chris Miller: I enjoy myself, which is my favorite. Whenever people are able to perform at the high levels, but then their personality, they're not prickly. Right.
Pat Brown: Right.
Chris Miller: They're able to get along with folks. And I had seen one of those pictures. You'd really blown up. You were, dude.
Pat Brown: Uh, it was the pads. The pads made me big.
Chris Miller: It may have been the pads. Honestly, those pads are so big.
Pat Brown: It was like, 3ft taller than my neck.
Chris Miller: Yeah, right. Your traps look crazy. Yeah. I think those pads were funny. You studied communication?
Pat Brown: Yes.
Chris Miller: You and me both. We both studied communication. Now. Did you take communication? Because everybody in the team, uh, took Communication.
Pat Brown: I took communication. I was a theater and communication major, so I wanted to make movies. When it was all said and done, obviously with Kansas, it's not like it's a hub of people making movies, but there was a small department and uh, that's what I want to do. The whole financial thing didn't come into play until years later. But not years, but a couple of years later with regards to um, taking that class that we kind of mentioned off Mike and that kind of changed the trajectory as far as what I want to learn in my soapbox or platform, if you will. But yeah, I want to make movies.
Chris Miller: Yeah. Do you still have that?
Pat Brown: Itch somewhat I think it comes out from time to time, uh, as far as just, I guess more of the creative juices. So when I look at something may look at it a little bit different. It is interesting when I start the process become into the financial industry. Some guys or some companies look at that as a knock that I communication and film. But some guys looked at it as an advantage, because I did look at things a little bit different versus the, uh, try and truth coming up through a business school. And I'm looking at things in black and white, where I'm a little more creative in a sense, because I think.
Chris Miller: With your lens and maybe they had a similar mindset. Maybe they had a different mindset. But whenever you have the communication background, then you remember as far as financial literacy goes, financial advisement, anything dealing with the exchange of currency, it all has a person behind it. And knowing how to interact with those people absolutely. Or just knowing about the people. Right. Thinking about them completely changes the outlook.
Pat Brown: There absolutely no I couldn't agree with you more. If you're the smartest person in the room, but you have no personality, odds are it's going to be tougher for you to kind of succeed in some type of business like this. Whereas, uh, the person that's able to relay information, specifically information that's uh, dry or it's, uh, hard to understand, that person probably is going to strive or do a little better, if you will.
Chris Miller: You show up from Ohio, you're in Kansas, you're on the football team, your butt is getting kicked by the workout, right. And you're getting some playing time. So talk to me about what's one of your favorite moments on the field.
Pat Brown: So anybody that you talk to that knows me will say the very first thing about if I were asked that question, that being two interceptions in one game, uh, two fixes two fix sixes. And so I say that kind of a smile because I do have fun with that. Whenever I'm talking to someone, and I may brag on that, um, but it was a good time when it happened.
Chris Miller: But you were unaware. And is that still a standing record for the University of Kansas?
Pat Brown: For yes. For the University of Kansas. I think I tied for a linebacker NCAA, but, uh, at the time, once it happened, it was fun, it was great. Uh, then after the game, a lot of reporters started kind of surrounding me, which I thought, okay, whatever, um, this.
Chris Miller: Happens all the time, right?
Pat Brown: This is a Tuesday. Um, what ended up happening, they mentioned that later. And it's so funny when I think about think back about stuff like that. It's not as if we had our phones and we had the Internet, or we can check it right then and there. I had to wait. I had no idea what was going on.
Chris Miller: Right.
Pat Brown: And so they told me that, uh, it was a record. I was like, really? I had no idea. I find out in the newspaper the next day. But yeah, uh, uh, that was probably one of the funnest times there, as far as, uh I don't know if I want to say accolades, but just having a good time. Colorado game. I think in 95, we beat Colorado, which we were under feed at the time. I want to say they're underfeited as well. And they were still good at the time.
Chris Miller: That was a big moment.
Pat Brown: Yeah, that's definitely was a big moment. We went to Colorado and beat them, and I remember coming back, and I think we were ranked that next week because Kay has those up and down ebb and flows as far as how good the program was. And, uh, we were coming off not a very good season before. And so to be, I think, either four or five or no at that time, and then beat Colorado at Colorado, and actually get ranked, that was pretty big time.
Chris Miller: Yeah, I know lately they've been doing good, but it hasn't always been the case.
Pat Brown: Yeah, uh, hasn't always been the case. It's been bare bones for a while. I think after we had success with the Aloha Bone, I think we were ranked fifth. Yeah, that particular year, we were ranked fifth or 6th in the nation. So after that year, we come in to the next year, I think ranked 7th. So still top ten, I believe. Somebody's probably had to fact check me, but that, uh, first game, we just went south, we just went downhill. It just wasn't anything nice. And we weren't bold LGBT for that. And then the next year after that, we didn't do that great, so didn't do well until or Kay, you didn't do well until I think Mancino got here a couple of years under his belt, and he kind of brought us back to some type of, uh, respectable season. Of course, Orange Bell was huge for us.
Chris Miller: It's been cool to see that progression. I'm imagining you catching those interceptions and then you take them back to the house. I think that okay. I'll be honest, I've never played football on a team before. I was a soccer guy growing up. I got into track and field. I just recently started playing basketball, as you could probably tell. But I think one of the most exhilarating things on the football field from an onlooker is punt returns. That's one of them, um, returning a kick off. And then whenever I see guys catch interceptions and then they just start running, I think that's one of the funniest things, right. Because it's the offensive players all trying to tackle the guy, right. And you're just like, dodging them. Do you recall those moments where you're catching the interception and you're like, all right, let's see how far I can get?
Pat Brown: Uh, absolutely. I remember that because at that particular time, I think, um, my position was not secure as far as starting outside linebacker. And so my position coach at the time, I know he was trying to basically split time with me and another linebacker. And, uh, during that game, the fact that I was able to score those touchdowns, I still had a fairly good game after that, I think, kind of secured my spot or starting spot. But yeah, I just remember, um, again, just looking at you can tell a lot about an offensive tackle and a guard. The way they block. If there's going to be a pass, if they're going to fire out, you can look at the whites or the knuckles. If they're kind of tensed up, you can see most likely they're going to fire out. If their butt is kind of leaning back, most likely it's going to be a pass. Depending on what, uh, down it is, most likely it's going to be all this stuff you can kind of take into account. And at that point, I, uh, started to understand the game a lot more. I don't know if you've heard this phrase probably in soccer as well, but when the game starts to slow down, that's when it really gets fun. So as you become a student of the game and you start to really understand plays and just personnel, uh, the game gets really interesting. And it's almost like you're playing chess because I have a pretty good idea of what you're about to do. Probably three steps before that. Um, don't get me wrong, I'm not right all the time. But when I was playing, I can kind of, and most guys do, who kind of start to really pay attention to the game or become a student of the game. Um, so, yeah, those interceptions were just absolutely, uh, fun. Uh, I did exactly what I was supposed to do as far as getting back to the girl. Oh, yeah. Both times.
Chris Miller: Did you tell the QB, like, hey, you're easier to read than the kids book.
Pat Brown: I'll tell them afterwards. No, I definitely, uh, had my fair share of talking trash on the film, if you could only imagine.
Chris Miller: You were a communication major.
Pat Brown: That's right. I had to communicate.
Chris Miller: Yeah, you have to communicate, uh, what.
Pat Brown: Play you about to run. Come on, now.
Chris Miller: Yeah. What are you there for school for, if not to communicate?
Pat Brown: That's right.
Chris Miller: And you finish school in four years because you're doing summer classes, right?
Pat Brown: That's right.
Chris Miller: Because you want to work out over the summer.
Pat Brown: Well, yeah, you definitely want to work out during the summer, but, uh how should I put it? Encouraged, uh, you as a program that, uh, it would be in your best interest to stay put and work out. Uh, so I need to say I did that. And, um, in order to stay, you have to be in school. So I did the summer courses and so forth. And so naturally, I started or got to graduate four years. It's, uh, a five year scholarship. So I graduated four years, and I was actually ineligible to play my senior year of football eligibility, which at the time, um, it doesn't sound abnormal to graduate in four years. But for whatever reason at that time, it's a little bit, uh, different. I don't know if it's just because of the scholarship of White, but, uh, regardless, I was actually ineligible to play my last year because I already graduated. And so they got whatever worked out, and I, uh, had to just take courses in order to be able to play. So my thought was I was going to take, um, my Master's or start my Master's program. So I started doing that, and things just kicking my butt. I was like, I don't know how people do this. So then I was like, I'm just going to basically take some courses, some stereotypical courses from Basketball 101, uh, softball or something like that. But one of those classes was the, uh, class transition from college to the workplace, which, again, is what we kind of touched base on, um, before her off mic. So this class is, uh, just for athletes. Experimental class of top by Wayne Walden, who's, um, on Coach Williams staff. And, uh, just talk about anything that you would deal with basically after school. So anything from insurance to stock to mutual funds, basically adulting, if you will. And so I remember sending that class, just being embarrassed because there are some guys who did understand what that stuff was. And I'm thinking, wow, this is so embarrassing. And so, at that time, we didn't have Internet. Uh, we did, but it wasn't what we had on our phones and so forth. So I had to pick up a book, and I just would read. Whenever, uh, we take trips to Nebraska, for example, or Case State, uh, or just in general, I would just try to read just to kind of understand if it was investing for Dummies, whatever it would be. And so my thought at that time was I wanted to, uh, basically be a financial advisor for athletes, for pro athletes. Um, but as I come to learn, athletes are flaky. As I'll get out, we're flaky. Football players in particular. We think we're immortal thinking to play forever, just, uh, as bravado of, um, things working out, I think, with regards to football players. And so I learned really quick in the, uh, start of my career that athletes are not what I'm going to be able to necessarily work with, um, from that standpoint. So, as time went on, I would always contact the university, and I would ask, if you guys ever have a program, a class, or whatever like that again, please let me know. I would love to be a part of it. So, year after year, I would contact them. Nothing. Hey, guys, let me know. Let me know. Nothing.
Chris Miller: Which is surprising, right?
Pat Brown: It is surprising. It's very surprising, uh, especially if I'm offering, basically free to teach them about or expose them to some of these things. So it wasn't until, like, maybe two years later, or two years, um, as of today, roughly, that I got a call from Wayne Simeon. Uh, and Wayne and I knew each other, but we didn't know each other. So Wayne calls me out of the blue. He basically says, hey, listen, would you be interested in talking to our guys about financial empowerment? Which I basically tell him the story that I just threw up on you. Uh, talked about the class, talked about just the lack of exposure, and just, uh, went on and on. Talk to the guys at the basketball team about financial. And it was very basic stuff. So everything from budgeting to credit cards to, uh, banking to just basic stuff. It wasn't great. I thought it went great. He thought it was great. And so Coach Q, who's on staff now, um, he mentioned, like, well, Pat, I want you to talk to, um, they call it Baka. It's the Black Assistant Coaches Association. So all the African American coaches, um, for the big twelve. This is Zoom. So this is right around COVID. And so he said, I want I want you to talk about your platform. I was like, Wait a minute. I got a platform. Oh, shoot. So I was like, I started putting together this website, uh, financial Literacy for student athletes. Real original, I know, and just putting together just real small I don't know if I want to see a significant but just resources, everything from just understanding credit cards to, like I said, uh, budgeting. Just simple stuff. And then I started interviewing former student athletes, and I kind of got the idea. Um, on ESPN, uh, years ago, there was ESPN 30 for 30 athletes going broke. So in this episode, uh, they talked to people that had basically gone on obviously from college, but gone to the NFL, NBA, whatever, and, uh, squandered their money away. So going from Andre Risen to Bernie Kozar, um, Vince Young from Texas, um, a number of other guys. And they would tell their story about how they made X amount of dollars and they lost X amount of dollars. And so it goes back to what I was thinking years and years ago, just the exposure or lack thereof. And so I don't work with pro athletes, but I do work or, uh, I'm trying to basically shorten that time frame of learning with the student athletes. And what I mean by that is, if I can narrow, uh, that gap, because you're going to basically learn regardless. Uh, you can't learn through trial and error. The, uh, example, you get a credit card and you start spinning up, you don't pay well, uh, that's going to mess up your credit. And everything is going to be higher with regards to interest and so forth. So if I may want to narrow that gap, help them understand how to use credit as a tool versus not using it, uh, then they're going to be better off when it's all said and done. So that was what I kind of thought I want to do with this platform. And a lot of guys that I talked to, a lot of former athletes, all their answers are very interesting. They're different, but they're the same. But they're extremely interesting. And every time I talk to a former student athlete, it's like I'm right back there to when I played. Because every athlete, I mean, we all have to wait that we talk, um, we have a certain way or not. I shouldn't say chippiness, but bravado, if you will. And it's so fun and it's so refreshing. Whenever I do talk to someone that has been there, whether, like I said, regardless of the sport, regardless of its, uh, female or male, they know what it's like. They know what it's like to sacrifice. They know what it's like to get up early, to go through practice. Your body is extremely tired. Uh, so it's always refreshing, like I said, to talk to them, but if not every single one, they've always said it would have been great to have a quote, Pat Brown when I was going through school. So that's kind of refreshing to hear. It's not as if I'm getting paid from this. I just love, uh, doing I love exposing these kids to what they eventually are going to learn down the road. Now, fast forward now. A lot of schools are starting, um, these financial literacy type programs, and they want their athletes to go through this program now, which I think is great. I mean, I'm not all schools are doing it, but there are schools that are at least having something that this athlete can do. So, uh, I think that's obviously a start.
Chris Miller: Yeah. And the demand is there, that is for sure, because you were, like you said, a student athlete. What did you know about money your freshman year?
Pat Brown: Man, I didn't know anything. I certainly didn't understand it. Both my parents are, uh, college educated, um, the whole nine yards. But we never sat at the dinner table and discussed anything dealing with financial matters enough. It's just because of the time. Maybe talking about money with your kids was kind of taboo back then, which uh, um, I can certainly understand. Those were the times. That's what happened. But, uh, you fast forward. I get into college, you know, you go up to West Coast, which is um, on Kay's campus, and all you got to do is fill out a farm. You get free T shirts. You get a bag of Skittles. You know, if you're hungry during the day, you know, you want some Skittles. Yeah, they're free. The next thing you know, you get this plastic card in the mail. And now you get a limit of $500. You can go spend that great $500. That's money. I go buy some shoes. I can do whatever I want. Oh, wait, I got to pay that. Oh, um has interest. What's interest? I don't know. Yeah. Now, I'm going to this perpetual will now this circle, because I don't understand. And so you have something like that, or it might even be worse for other people, but you have something like that, and then you pile onto it, and it starts to compound the wrong way. And, uh, here you are, senior year. You got debt, and you don't have any credit. So now you're starting your job, or a potential job with debt and lack of understanding. Uh, and nowadays there are jobs that look at your credit to determine whether or not they're going to hire you or not. But it's just so many things that you should be aware of. And lo, uh, and behold, if you are fortunate enough to go to that next level, whatever that pro sport is, you, uh, still need to know it. I keep coming back to credit because it's an easy topic to talk about. But if you have bad credit and let's say you are a millionaire. So if you're paying, like, 30% for something on credit because you're trying to buy a house or whatever, and you just have horrible credits and now your house instead of, I think, 4%, um, interest, and now you're paying 10% or whatever. I'm being facetious. But you're paying a lot more for something that you don't have to have, you know, the proper thing. So all this stuff is, uh, certainly important. Like I said, you will learn. Are you going to learn the hard way? Are you going to try to narrow that gap?
Chris Miller: Yeah, it feels a little better whenever you can learn something without losing a whole bunch of money.
Pat Brown: Absolutely.
Chris Miller: And I remember so personal story here. Cryptocurrency.
Pat Brown: Huh?
Chris Miller: It's still a big thing, but a couple of years ago, it was a really big thing. And people were making their own cryptocurrency.
Pat Brown: Coins and all that.
Chris Miller: Yeah, they were making their own coins. And someone had approached me about this project and they offered me the opportunity to be a seed investor.
Pat Brown: Oh, wow.
Chris Miller: It was like, oh my gosh, let's.
Pat Brown: Do it, let's jump at it.
Chris Miller: Uh, I'm going to be rich.
Pat Brown: Right?
Chris Miller: And needless to say, I was not rich. I am not rich. You see what we got going on?
Pat Brown: What are you talking about? You're rich in life.
Chris Miller: I know, rich in life. It is really nice. But the lesson, uh, one of the things that I was learning is I'm really grateful that and now I know I was listening to a podcast. Early seed investing very rarely ends up with, uh, optimally, the best people to do angel investing like that are people who, uh, like Tim Tebow. He has his money, mhm. He has a great image, he has a great brand, and he wants to invest in a local community, or you see different famous people doing that and it's not good for someone using their emergency fund.
Pat Brown: Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. And I think the, uh, marketing dollars that kind of go towards people that are regular folks, um, doing a disservice because typically, most folks are not going to be able to invest, but they don't have the discretionary income or discretionary, uh, money to actually invest in something like that. Because if they lose it, that's a big deal versus, like you said, a Tim Tebow that can afford to lose it. Yeah.
Chris Miller: So I learned that and I was like, okay, I'm not doing that again. But it's an example of something that once I get to the point to where there's another opportunity and it's with more money and it's like, thankfully, I learned this lesson whenever I wasn't dealing with that much, but I still learned that lesson. And I think about when you talk about going to the pros, some of this money that's exchanged between people's hands is way more than anybody could imagine.
Pat Brown: Right.
Chris Miller: And due to that, you may have a bit of ignorance, like, hey, no matter what I do, I'm set. And then someone approaches you with the real estate opportunity.
Pat Brown: A restaurant or something.
Chris Miller: A restaurant.
Pat Brown: Ah.
Chris Miller: Why is it always the restaurant?
Pat Brown: Because if you see your name on a building or a restaurant that feels good, like, I made it.
Chris Miller: Yeah, that's true.
Pat Brown: I got my own restaurant. So every year, uh, the NFL, the NBA, they have these orientation, rookie orientations, whereby you, uh, have a number of professionals that come up and they talk about certain things that these rookies need to understand moving forward. Obviously, topics that include dealing with their money. And so I make that comment just because they have someone out there telling them, don't do this here's what other people did last year or years prior. Here's how it burned them. But yet people make the same mistake. And there's always going to be some rookie or someone who thinks, uh, oh, well, it's not going to be me, it's not going to be me. Inevitably, they end up losing quite a bit of money. Um, and I mentioned the restaurant, uh, because it seems like everybody wants to see a restaurant with their name on it. Uh, and it does. It sounds great. But without really understanding how a restaurant works, it may not be best just to throw a bunch of money at it and hopefully it works. Football. Football in particular. If you look at the average lifespan or span of a particular player, you look at the position that he plays, and the odds are anywhere from three to four years that a, uh, player is particularly a skilled player in football. So that's either running back or receiver that they're going to play, um, and make a certain amount of money. Now, obviously, there are players that have played longer, um, and make quite a bit of money. You look at Tom Brady's play like 300 years. Um, but, um, that's the exception. The average is still fairly low. And so guys have to understand that. I'm sitting here talking bad about it, but I do think it's getting better. Uh, with everything dealing with, uh, the Internet, social media, the information is more readily available. And I think as time goes on, people are going to be more aware. So I think it is getting better. It's just going from the past. You really need to just focus in and just understand that you, uh, need to have a plan. Just like any sport, you need to have a game plan. So financial literacy is no different, right?
Chris Miller: So whenever you're working with a student with financial literacy, so you establish, like, financial literacy is knowing what to do with your financial resources, right? And then from there do you go, I know you're doing it with multiple people at the same time. So how do you break down a budget?
Pat Brown: Well, a, um, budget, I look at it, um, a couple of ways. So with student athletes, they're a little different because they depend on how they're they're paid or compensated. Prior to Niall, you had, um, a stipend that these kids will get, and the stipend will be X amount of dollars. So they need to essentially pay whatever rent that they have, and then they have a car, then they can use that for the car payment. And, uh, then just whatever else they use. As far as spending money, nine out of ten times. And all these athletes are not looking at trying to save anything. And so what I'm trying to get them to do is just do very, very small things to get into the habit. With college sports, it's all about repetition and so when they get out on the field, or if they get in, uh, a weight room, you always hear a coach talking about, get your reps in, get your reps in. Well, in the financial world, I'm trying to get them to realize that it's the same thing. So, for example, if you, um, can invest in something like, um, I use a mutual fund for an example. And I'm, um, by no means saying, hey, go invest in a mutual fund. But what I am saying is, get an idea of what that mutual fund looks like. If you're investing $10 a month, that's, uh, going to generate a statement that's going to come to your home. So now you have information that you can digest. So look at the statement. All you're doing is just developing those skills and because at some point, it's going to mean something to you later on down the road, uh, once you get a real job and so forth. But going back to your initial question, as far as budget, I tell them, if anything, look at having a couple of accounts. One account that a portion of that stipend goes into that's, uh, used for whether it's rent or utilities. Another portion that may be using, if they're going to tie there, uh, if they're going to put other money away for savings, separate that out so you don't have to think through the process and try to automate things as much as possible. So if you do have, uh, for lack of a better put things, a subscription or something, whether it's, um netflix. Yeah, Netflix for a perfect example. So if you have Netflix, um, that's automated. So you set them an automated thing. And so it happens every single month. Same thing you want to do with budgeting. So if you are going to save again, for the sake of this conversation, $10 a month, have $10 come out of this account and go up to a different account each month so that it's happened automatically, versus you doing it on your own. Because if you get caught up doing something else, whether obviously you're sport or school, you may forget to do it. So try to automate your habits as much as possible.
Chris Miller: This is kind of funny, talking about financial literacy. I didn't even know you could have multiple accounts for a while, you know?
Pat Brown: Multiple bank accounts?
Chris Miller: Yeah. Like, uh, I was like, oh, I have a bank account, you know. And then I started to meet people. And you got your check ins, you.
Pat Brown: Got your savings, right?
Chris Miller: You know, your what is it, high yield saving accounts. Yeah, money market accounts. And then I started meeting people who have several bank accounts with a, uh, fund for this kid or a fund for and it's like, man, just that one fact that, hey, you know, you can have multiple bank accounts.
Pat Brown: The other thing is, I don't think they well, I know they don't. Um, but, um, high school, you know, that would be a great place to really introduce people to financial literacy. Um, when I was in school many years ago, I didn't get taught anything in high school. Uh, and I went to a pretty good high school. At the time, I thought it was a pretty good high school. And so just exposure, exposure, exposure. That's the keyword of exposure. Having, uh, someone sit down with you and just kind of go over what a budget looks like, understand what credit looks like, understand what compound interest looks like, understand what investments look like, just to expose you're not going to learn everything, which that's one of the things I tell guys. You're not going to learn everything, but just to get exposed to it. So at least you recognize it very similar to whatever sports you're playing. That's why you go through practice, so you recognize things. Same thing with investment. Um, the example I used about investing in a mutual fund so that you can at least see what those statements look like when they come in. You can see what it's earning, what it's not earning, what the fees are, what the particular investments are within that mutual fund. Um, it's just exposure so that you can see and recognize this statement and what it is, just so you get in the habit of doing it.
Chris Miller: Those spreadsheets, I get those emailed to me now. I'm all digital, and I have a couple of different ETFs that I'm a part of. And I sometimes get a bit overwhelmed by all of the PE ratios and so forth. Yeah, all of the numbers on there. Do you go that deep with absolutely not.
Pat Brown: I don't, because just what you said, it can be daunting. And I try to stay kind of surface material for the most part, uh, just for that reason that you mentioned there. Keeping in mind, these are young student athletes, so their time is stretched so thin as it is. So I don't want to throw a whole bunch of stuff at them. I just want enough so that they are exposed and that it narrows that gap, because a lot of stuff they're going to learn, obviously, on their own. And certainly if they want to meet with someone that's a professional, financial professional, they can do that. If they want to be with me, they can do that as well. But just let them know that they have options, that they're not tied to one thing. And I always want to clarify, whenever I meet with these guys, it's not me coming to you saying, hey, look, you should do business with me. It is truly just a passion project. And you need to find someone that you trust that you can sit down with that can actually just explain everything to you. Explain I remember years and years ago, there was a, uh I forget the name of the movie that Denzel Washington, a movie that's in Julia Roberts. I forget the name of the movie, but he would always make this phrase. Explain it to me. M, like, I'm four years old.
Chris Miller: Uh huh.
Pat Brown: That's where he's an attorney. Tom Hanks was that movie.
Chris Miller: He and Tom Hanks going to tell you, you need to know this. You're a movie guy, I'm a movie buff.
Pat Brown: What was that? Tom Hanks was sick, had, ah, cancer anyway, had AIDS. He would always make that comment. Explain to me like, I'm four years old, and that's what I want, you know, guys to understand. You don't have to listen to someone who's, you know, using a lot of language and jargon that's quote over your head. You know, ask them, you know, dumb it down for you. You know, explain to him like, I'm four years old. So I think if anything, getting these young athletes to understand that they can.
Chris Miller: Ask questions like that, and they'll know if someone this odd person really wants them to invest in their restaurant, maybe they should think twice.
Pat Brown: They should definitely think twice.
Chris Miller: Three times, four times.
Pat Brown: Don't do it.
Chris Miller: Just don't do it. So, Niall, you mentioned Nil name, uh, image, likeness. Now, that's really changed the college athletic space as far as financial literacy goes, 100%.
Pat Brown: And going back to what I mentioned before about, uh, Wayne reaching out, that was one of the reasons he knew, along, uh, with his staff, they knew that Nil was coming down the pipe and it hadn't, uh, gone through yet at that point. Um, but Kudos to the basketball staff as well as Wayne for just trying to get out in front. They want their guys exposed to the stuff, at least to understand what this looks like because there are going to be some guys that have opportunity to make some money. I mean, Ku is ku basketball. M. It's like the cream of the crop. So of course they're going to have opportunity. And so I think they just want to really get out in front of it. And him reaching out to me was just great. I mean, I think obviously I'm in the backyard. Obviously I played play ball there, play football there. So I think it was just a natural connection.
Chris Miller: It was a good fit. So explain Nil to me like I'm for do the athletes approach the companies? Do the companies approach the athletes? What does this look like?
Pat Brown: Uh, it looks like the companies approach the athletes. And so how this is and everything's still changing, but essentially have different marketplaces. Uh, there's one in Oakland Park, I believe it's, uh, called open Doors. Uh, basically it's a marketplace. So if you're a student athlete, you can list your information with this open Doors. And then other companies, let's say, um, I know Jefferson's watch someone advertise their wings so they may contact opendoors who already put together their framework, if you will, as far as, uh, the contract tax forms that particular, uh, player would have to fill out. And they have that set up. So when you contact Open Doors, open Doors will say, okay, well, you're not going to do this job for anything less than $5,000. So it's $5,050 that you're going to do this job. They hire you through Open Doors, uh, as I said, Open Doors with any of the contract is signed, then it gets sent to whatever company that might be Jefferson's in this case, and thereby signs off. And then you do the job. And that's one way. There are other ways. If a company just outright contacts you, they see you playing ball on TV, uh, they contact you via, um, Twitter or via, um, Instagram and, uh, make a pitch for you to do XYZ at that point. Now, you have to be the one that does the due diligence. Uh, so do you have a contract that you want to sign or that you don't want to sign? Do you have an attorney that's going to look over that stuff for you? You're the one kind of driving that boat now, so that's another avenue. And that happens for whatever company, whether it's a restaurant company, whether it's, uh, corporate, whatever it is, they're, uh, reaching out to you directly, then you have to do kind of the due diligence, or hire a team, if you will. And, uh, that team can consist of an attorney, a CPA, or whoever. The other thing or other way that these actors are getting paid, uh, through Nil, is, uh, what's called a collective. And so I don't know if you've heard of what a collective is, but for the scope of this conversation, it's basically another entity or organization that has no ties with the university. So, uh, most universities are going to have in the area a, uh, collective that's named somewhat resembles the university. So, for Kansas, there's, the Mast Street Collective has Ku colors. Mastreet is obviously downtown. So that's the collective that's essentially not, uh, affiliated with Ku, but it's still nonetheless, a collective that will pool money together in order to compensate athletes for particular jobs. Okay? So those jobs may be anything from an athlete being hired to go to an event to sign autographs. And so it goes through Mastery Collective. They reach out to the athlete. This is the amount that's going to be paid for this job. And, um, athlete can say yay or nay. And, um, they say yes, and they go through the process and then they get paid. Uh, so one of the things that, um, what I do talk to some of the athletes about is just, um, how they get paid. So these athletes get paid 1099, typically. And so for those that don't understand what a 1099, you're basically getting paid, um, direct lump sum, so no taxes are withheld at all. So that's a concern of mine because if you're a young student athlete, you don't realize that you have to take some money and set it aside to pay taxes. It's really scary. So that's one thing from, ah, an exposure standpoint. You want these athletes to realize, obviously, I'm not an accountant by, um, no means, but, uh, we deal with enough accountants to realize that, hey, look, you need to go see an accountant. I, um, can only tell you so many basic things, but, um, if you are in that space of where you're making a nice chunk of money as, um, a student athlete, you definitely need to sit down with an accountant, a qualified accountant, at least make sure you're doing things the right way with regards to taxes.
Chris Miller: Yeah, build a team. Because that was one of the things I was interested in seeing if you knew, uh, kind of I know with Nil, a lot of financial resources are being poured into the student athletes. Do you think there's an equal amount of financial literacy and financial representation? Um, for instance, if someone comes on the team for Ku, are they automatically given a team of people to no.
Pat Brown: The way that the rules are right now as a university, they cannot advise student athletes with regards to a team. Um, so it's not like University of Kansas, again, for the sake of this conversation, can go out and say, hey, Bob, uh, you need to use this particular term, you need to use this CPA, you need to use this financial advisor, this insurance agent, or what have you. They're, uh, hands off. So it has to be a definitive line between the two. Now, uh, they can bring in, um, obviously professionals to come in and kind of speak in general terms with regards to what you need to kind of understand as student athletes. But, uh, it's up to the student athlete to find their own team. Okay? Uh, so that you can kind of go both ways as a university, shouldn't they be out there protecting us to an athlete? Um, but it becomes a liability because what if something happens and sgn athlete has some type of horrible experience with that particular profession at the university provided? And is that particular professional is that professional working for the university best interest or the student athlete says a lot, and I think that's why they have that definitive line. They said, okay, well, you just go find whoever.
Chris Miller: So it's up to the student athlete to build their own team. Correct. Which may be tough. Like you said, a lot of we all were coming into. I mean, now there's TikTok and Twitter and all these potential resources we could look at to gain knowledge. But you're 18, you get picked to go to a school to play ball, and then now you have companies approaching you, giving you.
Pat Brown: Rates. Different people that talk to always, um, keep saying there's going to be a lot of some casualties with a lot of these players. Uh, anything from, um, a tax standpoint, players that may get in a situation where they don't pay their taxes like they need to. I think that can certainly, uh, be problematic to other things. For example, if a student athlete doesn't pay an attorney, let's say that they do find an attorney on their own, and this particular attorney is kind of sketchy, and they go through and they sign an agreement. And let's say this attorney is not forthcoming, uh, with all the information. Now, this attorney potentially kind of has his or her hooks into this athlete. Let's say this athlete does go on to make quite a bit of money and approves. There's a lot of things that can certainly happen if you don't have a trusted team. It makes it really difficult. I'm, um, hopeful that doesn't happen. But, I mean, I got to be realistic. I know that's a possibility.
Chris Miller: Yeah. It seems like wherever there's a lot of money, oh, yeah. Then people show up.
Pat Brown: They definitely show up. They definitely show up.
Chris Miller: And they show up in their professional occupation, whatever that looks like. I think about this often. Not often, but every now and then I've thought about this. If I won the lottery, uh huh. I'm going to get this big lump sum of money. And I immediately think, okay, I need to get good people around me to help me spend this money. Help me just figure out how to even live with it. I got to get a good CPA. I got to get a good lawyer. But I think about that, and I'm like, I don't even know where I would get a good blank blank, because I've heard all of the bad stories. Right. So whenever we talk about NFL, NBA, really successful college athletes with the Nil deals nowadays, how do they find the people who actually care for them rather.
Pat Brown: Than oh, boy, that's a great question. Um, I guess the first thing is word of mouth. Obviously, if this thing kind of continues to go, there are going to be some things that are weeded out. There's going to be people that have success with certain attorneys, uh, CPAs, et cetera. And so once that happens, then other student athletes are going to be able to say, okay, well, this particular attorney, he's on the up and up. He's at this client for X amount of years. He's done well by this particular student athlete or former student athlete, um, referrals. I, uh, think just like anything people's, word of mouth is going to be a huge difference. Just interview people. Um, I know that's easier said than done, but, you know, try to get a good feel for the person. Get your family involved with regards to interview them as well. I was, I was kind of hesitating because, you know, a lot of times you see these horrible stories with these student athletes that do go pro. And they have Uncle Bob, who's a 7th grade teacher, who is now managing all their assets and their livelihood. And I was like, that's not good. I know you trust Uncle Bob, but he doesn't have the Acumen, he doesn't have the background. You need to hire someone with that background that does that on a day to day basis. And if you look at all these guys who, as I mentioned before, in that ESPN 30 for 30, a lot of times, if someone that their uncle or that they essentially trusted that again. There's nothing wrong with 7th grade teachers, by the way, that's a disclaimer. But should they be managing someone's career? So, obviously word, uh, of mouth, and then just, uh, interviewing people that are in the profession.
Chris Miller: That's one of those things that stresses me out, thinking about you're making all this money. And you know, that it's with most things, right? You build a company, you build a nonprofit, the team is everything. And if you don't have a good team, especially when there's a lot of money in there, there's a lot of opportunity for you to end up on a 30 for 30 documentary that's right now with financial literacy for student athletes. Have you gotten involved with cryptocurrency?
Pat Brown: No, I haven't. Uh, even at, uh, my firm, we don't, uh, deal with crypto at all, I think because our, uh, mindset is we try to invest in things that we can see in touch for the most part. So shares of a company or blue chip company or the likes of an IBM, where you can travel and see, okay, there's the building I can go touch, I can knock on the door. Whereas, uh, crypto, we, uh, just haven't gone that direction. So me personally, I haven't either. Is it here to stay? I don't know yet. I just haven't put that much emphasis on it. Especially not with, uh, retirement dollars, money that people are going to need, obviously, once they do retire, that doesn't even come near it. But I mean, is it something there is something there. I mean, there is some type of, um, nine success with it, but there is something there. It's just trying to figure out and navigate around it. I know when you mentioned as far as student athletes, I'm sure there are going to be a number of student athletes that want to understand it better or even want to get paid by it, by crypto, which I wouldn't necessarily recommend at this point. There's been other professional athletes that have done that, which it hasn't worked out well at all. I don't know, I haven't really been asked that much about it. ETF, uh, index fund, loved ETF and index funds, I think they're a great option. Um, fairly inexpensive as far as internal expenses are concerned. Very diversified as far as how you use them. You basically diversify in space with, uh, regards to the different sectors. So whether it's real estate, whether it's largecap makeup, et cetera. Definitely like ETFs quite a bit as.
Chris Miller: Far as the portfolio goes. Whenever people are getting into those ETFs, one of the things that, uh, I thought was so cool was you can whatever you know a lot about, you can invest in an ETF in that industry, like the airline jets. If you know a lot about fast food, you can invest in that industry. Mhm, and it's an awesome opportunity for people who are beginning to get into investing. Do you remember the first investment you made?
Pat Brown: I do. I invested, as a matter of fact, in some mutual funds. Uh, but again, let me back up. As I mentioned, when I first got into this business, when I left the university, I actually went and worked at, uh, JCPenney's distribution center just before I became a financial advisor, I came back to, I guess, becoming a financial advisor. And I remember still not fully understanding just investments in general. And I make that comment because when I first started, they had the option of investing in a 401K like I didn't necessarily understand. Four hundred and one K. And I met with a, ah, financial advisor, as a matter of fact. And he had uh, sold me some mutual funds. And so, thinking back now, obviously years and years, the uh, Prudent thing for him to do is to advise me to invest in a 401K because they match it at a certain point and money's tax deferred. And uh, there's a whole list of stuff that should have happened before I invest in just some regular mutual funds.
Chris Miller: It's like a brokerage account.
Pat Brown: Yeah. Well, actual financial advisor that I met with, wow. I told him that's what I'm trying to do. Look at me, I'm investing. The Prudent thing for me to be, would have been to, uh, invest in.
Chris Miller: A wonder why he didn't steer you that way.
Pat Brown: I don't know. Commission?
Chris Miller: Who knows? Yeah, commission. So I remember hearing someone say, you can own, like you like McDonald's, you can own McDonald's. I was like, what do you mean I can own McDonald's? And they said, instead of spending all your money on McDonald's, why don't you put your money into McDonald's so that you get a little money every time.
Pat Brown: Everybody else gets a burger from McDonald's.
Chris Miller: Sense and why you've punished.
Pat Brown: Yeah.
Chris Miller: And then they said, not only that, but you can invest or you can own 500 companies at once by investing in this index fund. So that got me really excited. But whenever you start becoming a financial advisor, you get to a point to where you decide to make your own firm, mhm, and build your own business. And to see that trajectory of someone who shows up to school and you have no idea about financial literacy. You're in a class, and then you got a point to wherever you're building your own. Firm advising people on their financial resources.
Pat Brown: Uh, when you put it like that, that is pretty, uh, interesting.
Chris Miller: What made you want to go build your own thing?
Pat Brown: Well, it actually didn't happen on purpose. When I started, uh, as I mentioned, my first job in this industry was with American Century. And so for those that don't know who American Century is, they're a mutual fund company. They're headquartered in Kansas City. And so basically, my job was to talk to the current investors and basically diversify the portfolio within American Century mutual funds. That's what I did. I mean, I was very much all about the company. I wanted to kind of rise to the top, and I'm always trying to climb that proverbial, uh, corporate ladder. Where they were located, there were two towers. So you had the main tower, which was where American Century was, to the other tower, which housed a number of other firms like Real, uh, estate firm, attorney firm, and Smith Barney. So I had a teammate who worked at Smith Barney, and there was a little cafeteria that was right in the middle. And so from time to time, we were seeing each other, and he was just talking about, hey, you need to come work at Smith Barney. And we would do that for, uh, seemed like not months, but maybe a month, month and a half. So I finally started that process, and the interview process took forever, and I got hired on it smith Barney, which at the time was a big firm. And so I'm there at Smith Barney for onto the purposes, learning quite a bit, loving, um, it I get recruited to go to Merrill Lynch. So Merrill Lynch like the big dog, right? I'm making to the big leads. And so, uh, essentially got recruited to go to Merrill Lynch. So I made the move to Merrill Lynch. And then in eight this is when the market crashed. When, uh, the market crashed, merrill lynch basically laid off a bunch of new advisors. I was one of them. So basically, I had this Jerry Maguire moment. You know, I downstairs in the parking lot, like, who's coming with me? Trying to think of all the clients I could, you know, essentially take with me that that were mine. And so that day, I think it was like February 19 or something in the parking lot to start my own firm. I basically call up and figure out all the stuff that's kind of on the go. I'm trying to figure out how do I start a firm with the small business that I have? I had to kind of create my own systems, and that's what I did. I just made mistakes along the way, learn from it and keep on moving. Just like sports, I just keep on moving. And so I was on my own for like, oh, gosh, quite a bit. I'm trying to think how long I was on my own. Then I merged my practice into this Edmunds Duncan here in town about three years ago. Three, four years. So, yeah.
Chris Miller: The whole time, were you doing it by yourself?
Pat Brown: I literally was doing it by myself. So I opened up accounts, uh, doing the paperwork, meeting with the clients, the research, um, all the stuff I was doing by myself, which, looking back on, is great because I know how things are done and I have an expectation versus just showing up and doing something, not understanding how the back works. And so I think it definitely benefits me because I can wear all hats. I mean, if you think it in terms of a McDonald's house, you got a manager. If that manager hasn't done every single job, worked a prize, swept the floor and all this stuff, he or she is probably not a good manager. But if they've done all that work, they know what it takes to run, uh, that place successfully. That happened to me. And so although, uh, times are rough, I enjoyed that experience. Taught me a lot.
Chris Miller: What's the hardest part about being a.
Pat Brown: Financial advisor? Um, maybe some of the connotations. Because typically, whenever you have a perfect example, barry Madoff. When everything started falling apart for him.
Chris Miller: Do people start looking at you?
Pat Brown: Yeah. I'm not Bernie. I'm too naive to be Bernie. I don't even know how to do it. Nor would I.
Chris Miller: But I don't. You're like, I can't do that.
Pat Brown: That's genius. Great for him. But, um, something like that certainly lets people look at you in a certain way. And a financial advisor, we're a dime a dozen. If we walk outside, I'm sure the financial advisor walking his or her dog. Anywhere you go, someone is always claiming to be a financial advisor. How do you differentiate yourself? I guess it's really no different than any other business. Whether you're podcast, whether you're on a grocery store, it's just about being genuine with whoever you're working with. I tell anybody I'm a horrible salesperson. I cannot sell to save my life. The thing that I probably I'm not going to say I do better, but, uh, just relationships. I'm all about relationships. And so if I develop a relationship with someone, my whole point of developing that relationship is not to do business with them. I'm just, like, generally curious. This person, they sell Widgets on the corner. How did you get started? Let's go grab coffee. It's not to say, hey, I'm going to sell you something later on down the road. Uh, I never was like, that probably the reason why I don't make as much money as I probably could, but I just can't do that. I don't know if it's just upbringing, uh, shout to my parents, but I'm just not wired that way. Yeah. So if someone, in theory, wants to do business with me later down the road, so be it. But if not, I'm not concerned. That doesn't motivate me.
Chris Miller: The curiosity motivates you as far as meeting with people in the relational currency rather than the actual financial currency.
Pat Brown: That's a great way to put it. In the, uh, emotional currency. Yeah.
Chris Miller: And that's something that I've seen a lot of people that I look up to. They have similar aspects with that. Because the studies show whether or not you're happy with life, it's not going to be about the cash. It's going to be about the quality of relationships.
Pat Brown: Quality of life. Uh, I talk about this all the time, quality of life. And, uh, it's, um, a broad statement, but it really is. Everything comes back to the quality of life. Whether I can go to my dentist and I can talk about football games. I want a dentist. I can do that well if I got that. So it's a quality of life playing basketball Monday, Wednesday, Friday, mornings of a good group of guys, quality of life, all that stuff. That's what you search for. And so does it cost a lot of money to get that? No, it's good. People, uh, when you mentioned quality, it just kind of took me back there. So, yeah, I'm all about the quality of life.
Chris Miller: You're thinking about this stuff already all the time. Absolutely. Quality of life. Because I also have a curiosity to me, and I remember whenever I was an undergrad, one of my favorite things to do was just to meet people and I could say, oh, hey, I'm a college student. Can I borrow some wisdom from you about this certainty? That's pretty good.
Pat Brown: Yeah.
Chris Miller: And, like, being a college student, nobody was like, that's weird, you know, because it's like, oh, you're a college student, you're learning. And I could approach just about anybody, and, I mean, not everybody would be available, but a lot of people are much more willing to share with you than you expect. I think that's so cool to know that there's different people out there who operate under that same motive is curiosity. What can I learn? Because the people around us are, like, the books absolutely.
Pat Brown: The education. Absolutely. So it's funny, we know where we play at, uh, Rock Chuck. Uh, I don't know if you notice. I'm trying to think, what's the last time you were out there to play?
Chris Miller: Has it been a while?
Pat Brown: Like December? December. So even going back to something like Rock Chuck, every time we go in, I make it a point to talk to whoever's working at front desk. So Pam learned a lot about Pam. She works and plays, uh, basketball in the granny league. She's had an opportunity to play at all in the fieldhouse. She talks about, obviously, grandkids. She talks about, um, just so much and have just the best relationships with her, because I want to get there and get there early, obviously, to stretch, but just have a conversation with Pam. And so things like that. I'm not trying to get anything from Pam. Pam is a great lady. So it's just meeting people with me. And like I said, the quality of life, uh, is just what it's all about for me.
Chris Miller: I want to get Pam on the court.
Pat Brown: I don't know, man. She may shake you up, man.
Chris Miller: Don't let her fool you. No, that's the thing. I know she would shake me up. I want to see her shake some other people up.
Pat Brown: She probably shakes quite a few, uh, fams in better shape than most of us. Probably.
Chris Miller: Yeah. I would love to see that. Well, thank you for being here, Pat. I appreciate you. I think it's cool to see you have the credentials, all that jazz, but you're a kind guy. I appreciate that. Yeah. That is what stands out to me, and that's what I want on here. All right, folks. We'll see you next time.
Pat Brown: Sounds good.