#14 - Shawn Abhari: From Local Gigs to Global Streams, Making Music in the Digital Age

Chris Miller: So that means you're live.
Shawn Abhari: All right, let's go.
Chris Miller: In the Abhari Clem studio.
Shawn Abhari: In the Abhari Clem studio.
Chris Miller: We are here live, and music is being made. I just listened to one of your songs that hasn't been released yet.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah, this is true. We wrote that song. Why? It came up with the demo about a year ago, and we're just finishing the mixing process now.
Chris Miller: Okay, so you say about a year ago. How long does making a song take you from vision to actually people listening to it on Spotify?
Shawn Abhari: Uh, it depends, because as we've gotten better, we've done challenges where we start a song, and we've released a song within a week. But for certain standards now and standards of excellence we're trying to meet and continue to meet, the length of time is getting longer, especially as our team is growing and they're wanting us to succeed. And there's money sometimes being put into our songs. We're going to have to have those songs maybe ready, like, two months in advance to make sure these marketing campaigns are rolled out by the time the song is out and this song has been pitched to this amount of people or playlists, for example.
Chris Miller: Yeah, because at that point, you're like, OOH, we have to get this song done, this point, because we're going to have X amount of number instagram ads and X amount of number on this so we can't lolly gag around.
Shawn Abhari: Exactly. And so if we planned that out, we could say, okay, let's make sure we have the master and the entire song completely finished by January 31, because it's going to come out on March 1. So it'll give us the entire month of February to start pitching it and doing some PR runs with it and, like, little campaigns. But the actual songwriting process could take as little as 2 hours. And as long as I guess in hours, however long you want to take with it. But we've done a song in a few hours. We've done a full song writing and production in probably, like, 10 hours before.
Chris Miller: Wow.
Shawn Abhari: It just kind of depends how on point we are that day.
Chris Miller: Yeah. I feel as if I'm in a profound experience right now. I'm catching number eight, Kobe Bryant, before he turns number 24, and also explained that whenever Kobe Bryant first started in the NBA, he was number eight, but he was already really good, and then he got even better, and whenever he was extremely good, he switched to number 24. And I feel like the Ivy, your band, you all have been getting good. You've been getting good. And then now I show up, and you all are hitting these PRS, and you have X amount of people listening and all around the world to where you all are about to put that number 24 on and start to wreck shop.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah.
Chris Miller: Do you feel that way?
Shawn Abhari: Uh, yeah. I mean, I think it's definitely like, there's a certain amount of pressure that comes with it where you're like, oh, my gosh, people are actually listening. People actually like it.
Chris Miller: This is cool.
Shawn Abhari: It's working. And I think the larger that number gets, the more that kind of gets real to you. You're like, now we have a million people. Oh, now we have this many. Whatever our goal is, or ideally, we just keep breaking those goals. Um, yeah, I think there's a pressure of how good we want the next song to be, and also, uh, like, timeline base. Like, okay, well, we want to make sure we put out some more songs, let's say, in this quarter or this part of the year, because we are not going to be touring. And so there's certain pressures. But I think having a good team on your side kind of alleviates that and allows you to focus on the creative process as much as possible.
Chris Miller: Yeah. Let's zoom out. Okay. Because right now we're talking about these billions or seven figure numbers about listening and streaming. But I remember whenever we were at college, sitting in the sports grill, waiting for our chicken sandwich and fries or cheeseburger. What do you think you ordered? Cheeseburger.
Shawn Abhari: Cheeseburger and fries, probably.
Chris Miller: Cheeseburger and fries. And we were vision casting setting goals for the year. And I remember it was such a big deal for you to throw around that 1 million number.
Shawn Abhari: Do you remember that?
Chris Miller: Yeah. Wasn't that your yearly goal? Like, by the end of the year, you wanted to have 1 million overall streams?
Shawn Abhari: That was February 2017. We put out our first EP, and I sat down with you in that first week, and I was like, Dude, I don't know how, but at the end of the year, it would be awesome to have a million listens across all our music with only having this one project released. And you said, how will you do that? I don't know. I guess we'll have to get, like, 100,000 a month. And it was a pipe dream, but things happened and we did it.
Chris Miller: Did you hit that in 2017? That year you hit a million?
Shawn Abhari: Yeah. But technically, it wasn't for that project. It was because we also released Gold that year. And that song, um, kind of allowed us to grow exponentially.
Chris Miller: Because with Gold, didn't you go to sleep and you woke up one day and you got put on a special playlist?
Shawn Abhari: Kind of. It hit the algorithm just right. So there's something on Spotify called Discover Weekly. And the week prior, we had put this song out six weeks ago, not to this date, but at the time, whenever I woke up the next day, it was six weeks since it had been released. And I had noticed, oh, now the amount of people listening every day is quite a lot higher than what it has been. This must be a better song. So I was really excited about that fact, and I was kind of keeping up with the numbers. And we went to bed one night, it was 715, like, monthly listeners, and the next morning it was 1400. So it doubled from 700 to 1400. And then the next day it was, um, like, 17,000. And then by the end of the week, it was 230,000 monthly listeners. So that song got put on 250 plus thousand people's. Discover Weekly.
Chris Miller: Wow.
Shawn Abhari: And so that instantly got us phone calls and interviews with, like, from labels and music, um, reps. And so it was definitely an exciting experience, but it was also a lot of learning and kind of realizing, like, okay, it's not just one song that'll do it for you, it's many songs.
Chris Miller: Yeah. And you said phone calls from these people. Do they have access to the analytics to see who's blowing up, or did you report those statistics to somebody?
Shawn Abhari: Yeah, well, on a globally viral scale, we were number three in the world in terms of Spotify's global viral charts.
Chris Miller: And that's just from the Spotify app. You can see that, yes, it has.
Shawn Abhari: A playlist called Spotify Viral, but anyone can also go, like, in the music industry, they can go and put in your Spotify URL or Uri, I think, and they'll see all of these analytics, and it's interesting to see. I actually did it to our band this week just to see on websites that I haven't ever used before.
Chris Miller: Do you have to pay for that?
Shawn Abhari: Um, most of them you do, but there was one that was free that I found. Yeah, of course I found it.
Chris Miller: They're just getting into the market and they're trying to get some of the share.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah. They're like, okay, well, we'll do it for information.
Chris Miller: Yeah, that's awesome. You mentioned, like, you felt like the song was of higher value, like, higher quality due to the likes and the listens.
Shawn Abhari: Uh, yeah. I was like, okay, this must be a better song, because it's doing better. But also, even before that, I think as we were writing it, I realized, like, okay, this feels really honest. And people that were able to listen to us write the song and record it like third parties told us, like, oh, I don't know what you guys are singing, but it sounds super good. And so we got compliments kind of as we were still writing it, which made us excited about releasing it, of course, but we weren't expecting much to happen.
Chris Miller: So was little Sean walking around wanting to be a musician?
Shawn Abhari: Yeah, I was.
Chris Miller: When was the first moment you realized when you're creating music?
Shawn Abhari: Ah.
Chris Miller: When was the first time creation how old were you?
Shawn Abhari: Oh, the first time I remember writing, like, a song was in the back of my parents car. I was just humming these melodies, and I remember saying, like, guys, I just wrote a song. And I remember that was the first time. I like it's. It's funny. It's such a vivid memory to me. But I was just in the back of my parents car, probably six years old, and humming like, notes, and I was like, okay, that's catchy, that's cool. And I just kept humming it.
Chris Miller: And were you like, classically trained piano? Were you one of those kids where they put you in piano lessons?
Shawn Abhari: Yeah, they put me in piano at like, four years old and I played until about nine. And then I switched to guitar because my favorite band at the time was Green Day. Yeah, I was super into Blink 182, Green Day, All American Rejects, all of those bands.
Chris Miller: Yeah. And then you are writing songs when you're six years old, you start playing guitar when you're nine. The whole entire time you've been playing piano.
Shawn Abhari: Mhm.
Chris Miller: Whenever you're writing these songs, are you thinking of lyrics or is it just melodies?
Shawn Abhari: It's just melodies. I know this about myself that even when I hear songs, um, that I love, sometimes I'll go back and listen to a song and I'll realize I never once comprehended these lyrics. Like today I heard a song that I loved and listened to all the time in 2020, just three years ago now. And I, for the first time today, was hearing the story that the artist was singing, thinking like, uh, what song is this? This is such a strange story. And then I realized, I love this song. I just never processed the lyrics that well.
Chris Miller: Yeah, that's funny, because I've been in phases of my life where I'm like, I'm not going to listen to music unless it has uplifting lyrics. And then, uh, I'll listen to a song and I'll really like it. But I realized that I didn't even listen to the lyrics at all because the melody was so catchy. And it makes me wonder, like, these bands, I'm thinking of Chain Smokers, okay. Because they have, like, really catchy, uh, or Coldplay. But then again, I feel like Coldplay is probably really thoughtful with their lyrics.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah, I think Coldplay is definitely more thoughtful than chain smokers. I think people might be offended if you were to make that comparison.
Chris Miller: Maybe tread the Overdeck, tread lightly. But with Chain Smokers, they have these really catchy beats. So I wonder if lyrics are an afterthought for them.
Shawn Abhari: No? Yeah, for sure. You can go on YouTube and watch some of their songwriting sessions. And definitely the track and the production of it comes first. And then it's like, okay, let's figure out melodies. They find the melodies and then it's like, okay, well, it kind of sounds like you're saying, baby, pull me closer in the backseat of my Rover. Does that make sense? And then it's like, oh, yeah, maybe we could call the song Closer. And then it goes triple diamond, I.
Chris Miller: Don'T know, crazy as a kiddo, um, doing the songs. When do you have your first live performance in front of people?
Shawn Abhari: Um, I did performances, if you will call it, at church. Growing up, my parents church, I would play like, piano recitals, um, for the parents of the piano classes. And then at church we would play little things or show off our musical abilities. Sometimes it was even just a choir, um, like a children's choir. I remember the first time I played electric guitar and I loved it. It was more like rock music was I did a cover of Holiday by Green Day, um, for my brother's 7th and 8th grade talent show when I was in fifth grade. And everyone there was like, screaming and they're like, let's go. During the solo. And I was nailing the solo and then I went back and was like, singing the like, you know, I was singing and playing guitar for that song. And I just remember smiling so big and being like, this is what I want to do with my life. Like, in the middle of the song, having that thought, this is so cool. And yeah, it was fun.
Chris Miller: And I hear whenever you're doing a live performance and I feel kind of similar whenever I'm speaking in front of a lot of people, it's almost like you get in your bag. Right. And particularly with soccer, I especially feel this way with soccer, I could be feeling really stressed out and then I start playing soccer and I'm still super nervous even though I've done it so much. But as soon as the whistle is blown and I'm starting to run around, everything fades, um, away. M, and I can focus on that. How would you explain the feeling you get whenever you're playing live?
Shawn Abhari: That's a good question. I think whenever I'm playing live, I'm definitely focusing. I try not to be too focused on what I'm playing and actually singing, because at that point, I would like for it to be kind of more muscle memory. But at the same time, I really try to feel the music like the emotions that the melodies are conveying. And ideally, there's people in the crowd that are feeling the same way. So I really try and connect with that and that kind of overarching emotion. I'll say that it's different from show to show, depending on if that show consists of a lot of your fans who already know the songs, or if they're being introduced to it for the first time. Because then if someone's never heard the song before, they're less likely to respond really exuberantly or positively, as opposed to if you're playing a show and the first row of people all know your songs, even just that can influence the entire back of the room because of how much energy is at the front of the room. So that's interesting. Also.
Chris Miller: If you have a few diehard fans there. Yeah, it really elevates the experience.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah, I think it elevates the experience for everyone. Because people are kind of like, people like to feel like they're a part of something. And if everyone's standing there watching a, uh, presenter presenting his business idea, then everyone's kind of just going to listen and be bored. But if the guy were to be doing a really extravagant show of it, maybe he's tossing knives, selling his knife, omatic 2000 then. And if you have people in the crowd that are excited, it's going to get other people excited. One of the first instances of PR in the music industry was people in the 20s specifically placed at these, um, events where music is being played, and they would purposely place one person in one part of the room. Another person in another and a third person somewhere else, and play on the idea of mob psychology, where if you have these three people cheering really loudly, you can actually create a sort of chain effect, um, that just spreads throughout the event like a wave.
Chris Miller: And I think people do that with speaking too. With big speaking events.
Shawn Abhari: Oh yeah.
Chris Miller: Or with I know pastors will have their staff sit on the front row, mhm, and then they give feedback, active feedback, like, come on, Amen, preach it.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah, that's good.
Chris Miller: Right? That's good. And whenever you're new to the church and you're sitting there, you may not even being paying attention to what the pastor is saying, but whenever people around you keep saying, that's good, come on.
Shawn Abhari: Then it's like, okay, what are they saying? Maybe I should listen.
Chris Miller: Yeah, maybe I should listen. Because this person's willing to speak up in front of hundreds of people, uh, to talk about that before you know what you're listening. I learned this one thing, the President, particularly Obama, one thing that he did whenever he was going to these big conventions or giving a big address, whenever he walked out of the stage, be it from the left side or the right side, he would always wave. It would seem as if he was waving to a certain person. But even if he didn't know anybody, he would just look at somebody and wave. And what that did was create a connection. And the audience is like, oh wow, he actually knows people here, even though he's just staring at somebody. Right. So that instance of relatability and using, being intentional about creating or manipulating the vibe, kind of like making the plants or putting plants in the audience, putting thought and intention of increasing and improving that live experience.
Shawn Abhari: Mhm, yeah. No, that's a good idea. Maybe I should start waving before and after I play each concert. Yeah.
Chris Miller: Or like pointing at somebody.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah.
Chris Miller: It seems like there's only an upside for sure.
Shawn Abhari: I guess people a lot of times will place thoughts in your head that aren't necessarily true. They're more anxious thoughts where you think, oh well, I don't want to embarrass myself, or I don't want to whatever the case may be, but when you're on stage, a fun part of it is you kind of realize, well, I'm on a platform. I can do no wrong. I could literally come out here dressed in the most ridiculous of clothes, and that will only help my chances of being remembered, if you will.
Chris Miller: Right.
Shawn Abhari: But if you're just super, like, normal because you're afraid that someone is going to that you'll be embarrassed by someone's response or reaction that, uh, could probably only hinder you.
Chris Miller: Yeah, it's the wild clothes and the crazy shoes and the ludicrous haircut. It's viewed as artistic self expression, and it's like, wow, this person's so creative.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah. I like to try and wear one piece of wild clothing on stage.
Chris Miller: Okay, give me examples.
Shawn Abhari: Uh, like, I found a bright yellow teamsters button up workers coat on the side of the road in Nashville.
Chris Miller: Wow.
Shawn Abhari: And so I picked it up. Well, when I say side of the road, it was being sold on the side of the road on a little clothing rack swung by, bought it for, like, $7. And I'll wear that at show sometimes, and it's, like, kind of bright, but it's cool and it's, like, really big, and it looks dumb. But when you wear it with, like, everything else looks good, then it's like, okay, well, that's a key piece, key item.
Chris Miller: Would you say you like fashion?
Shawn Abhari: I enjoy the idea of fashion. I wish, uh, I was better at it. And I've processed through the idea of fashion and what it means a lot, I think. And sometimes I just realized that in my own list of priorities, I would rather spend my money on a new piece of musical equipment as opposed to a new pair of shoes, let's say. And so I'm always that guy that I'll buy a pair of shoes, and two years later, I'm still wearing that same pair of shoes because they still work. And I'll try and keep them clean, but many of my friends will purposely make a, uh, budget to buy a pair of shoes every couple of months just to kind of keep up with the styles and the trends. And that's when I really realized, okay, I enjoy fashion and the idea of it, but it's not too high up in my priority list, so I'm just going to let it happen. Some cool piece of clothing comes across.
Chris Miller: My desk, I'll wear it side of the road. So fashion is not number one priority. Probably not number two. Number three. Yeah, let's go to the priority list.
Shawn Abhari: Relationships would be up there, like, friendships, people, communication. Interpersonal communication with people.
Chris Miller: Yeah. Number two, music.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah. I try and keep music as high up as possible. The thing is, if you're serious about.
Chris Miller: It, it should be number one.
Shawn Abhari: No, you're right. I think your job and your career and your overarching goals should always be a reminder or something that you're reminded of consciously and constantly to continue your growth, right?
Chris Miller: Yeah. But you're on point with the relationships and that's something you're great at. And I'm bragging on you a lot here because you won't do it yourself. And I've seen a lot of the progression. We've both seen each other progress, be it via art, pursuit or just in general. Uh, and I think that's one of the coolest things is whenever you find somebody who is willing to create and contribute to the world with their artistic skill, be it music or art, whatever that looks like. But then there are also good people who are good at developing relationships. Would you agree?
Shawn Abhari: Oh, for sure. Many people are very stressed out. For example, like, what's my passion? M what's my goal in life? Where's my place? And then you realize what you're good at is connecting this person to this person. Or what you're good at is helping people see their value or see their worth. Sometimes the best thing we can do is just shed a light on other people and that'll help us discover whatever it is on the inside. But maybe you'll realize, okay, what I really want to do now is be a motivational speaker or be a therapist or be something that lines up with that whenever you find passion in certain conversations with people yeah.
Chris Miller: If you weren't in music, what do you think you'd be doing?
Shawn Abhari: I don't know. See, that's something I've always liked about, I guess, myself, is how interested I've been in most everything. So I think it would be awesome to build airplanes to be an astronaut or even a pilot. I have business ideas now. The idea of actually building and growing it and making my focal point, the financial side isn't a strong suit of mine or really like a passion of mine. So that's why I would never say like, oh, I want to be a really good businessman, but the ideas and the dreams that come behind it are what I like to get behind more.
Chris Miller: Yeah, I can see that. Whenever you're doing Green Day Live performances and you got the smile on your face and you're like, hey, there's something here and I want to tap into it more. And this is like middle school. And did you do I was talking to somebody about this the other day. I think my sister was asking because I was telling her that we were going to hang out. I was telling her you went to private school, then public or was it public, then private.
Shawn Abhari: So I grew up going to public school and then in 8th grade I switched to private school.
Chris Miller: What was that like?
Shawn Abhari: Uh, it was, uh, quite a different dynamic because I feel like in public school you're kind of being pushed to stretch your kind of your scale of taboo ness, you know what I mean? And so certain things you grow up and you're like, oh, that's really taboo, such as a cuss word. And then the more you hear it or say it, it becomes less and less and less. And so in public school, I felt like I was constantly being exposed to certain things and people were just doing things for the provocativeness of it.
Chris Miller: Sure.
Shawn Abhari: And so by the time it was 8th grade, I had seen a lot of things, I guess, that maybe a typical 8th grader probably shouldn't because of public school. And so then going to Holland Hall, I remember the very first day, there was a couple of people that were really nice to me. And so at the end of the day, it was like these these girls and they were like, uh, being super sweet. So I was like, all right, I'll see you later. And gave them a and I went to give them a hug and they were like, uh, what are you doing? And got so weirded out by the fact that I was trying to hug them. But in public schools, if I was going like, saying goodbye, it was like, you have to give me a hug. So I just thought it was different. And it was also like I was around more emo kids when I was in public school. And when I transitioned to private school, everyone there was all about Disney and kind of like the Jonas Brothers and Selena Gomez, Miley Cyrus. That was like 20 08 20 09 20 10 that was huge. Justin Bieber was popping off. So yeah, I mean, it was a, uh, totally different dynamic in terms of what the culture was like in the schools that I was at.
Chris Miller: Did you have any of the posters on your wall with like, JB or the Jones Brothers?
Shawn Abhari: No, I didn't even have I feel like the posters on my wall. I had like a 3D space shuttle, uh, shuttle. I had the original 50 Pokemon, like a poster of that. But that was like my brother and I both had that in the hallway.
Chris Miller: Yeah, it was like a joint interest.
Shawn Abhari: It was more like he was really interested in Pokemon. And I was like, I am too. I had a world map on my wall. And my dad would always quiz us on capitals of each country.
Chris Miller: That is awesome.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah.
Chris Miller: Are you fairly good at that now? Like geography?
Shawn Abhari: Uh, at one point, I was really good. I could do like, most like, all 50 states. I knew all the capitals, states capitals at one point.
Chris Miller: And then you were in public school and it all went by the way, I'm a public school grad. Uh, it's funny, I say that as if it's a unique thing when the majority of the country attends public school. I had one poster on my wall and it was a car, a sports car. It was this red I'm trying to think of what it was called, but I got it from the book fair. Did you guys do scholastic book fairs?
Shawn Abhari: Yeah, that was like a public school thing.
Chris Miller: Okay.
Shawn Abhari: Not private school.
Chris Miller: Not private school.
Shawn Abhari: They had their own private book fairs. Yeah, it was just like families from around the neighborhoods, wealthy neighborhoods would bring their books and they would just do fundraisers for the private school. Dang yeah.
Chris Miller: That's awesome. So at the book fair, I remember getting some books, but we would always look at the posters and the erasers because they had the coolest erasers there. And I brought one home and it was rolled up and I unrolled it, uh, above my bunk bed. And I remember looking at that car and loving that car. But I'm not really a gearhead. I'm not a car guy. But for some reason, I like that one car.
Shawn Abhari: Nice.
Chris Miller: Yeah. Okay, so you officially transitioned to private school and you're hugging girls when you're not supposed to. Mhm is pursuing music taboo there? Because I have a hunch. Okay. And you can tell me if I'm wrong. I feel like creativity is more common. How about creative expression is more common in public school than private.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah, I agree. Actually, I think there was more money put into the arts at public schools because it was in conjunction with the sports. Sometimes when it came to, like, marching band, let's say, for example, versus at the private school that I went to, those arts were typically required and requirements, so therefore, kids were forced to play instruments or to practice in the band. So therefore, the level at which that band program or orchestra program grew was so much slower than, like, public school that had competitions every spring and every fall, and there was kind of that competition. They were incentives to get better, especially whenever you had many more kids in your class that are helping push the curve. You know what I mean? But when there's only one person in the class that I'm not going to say I was the one person, but I remember switching from public to private school and realizing, oh, I'm never really going to have to practice this instrument again. The amount that I had learned at public school pretty much lasted me throughout high school.
Chris Miller: Private school.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah. And so I would do competitions on my own just for fun. But it was always quite difficult to get that information, even from my private school music, um, teacher, as opposed to a public school teacher, where competitions were usually even, like, mandatory. We all have to represent the school.
Chris Miller: And what were you playing? Saxophone?
Shawn Abhari: No, I played the euphonium, the baritone.
Chris Miller: Okay.
Shawn Abhari: It's like a low brass instrument. It sounds like a trombone, but it has valves. And then in jazz band, I played trombone.
Chris Miller: So did you have an affinity for jazz? Did you like jazz?
Shawn Abhari: Yeah, it was beautiful. I think my older brother was in jazz band when he was at public school, and. I went to the jazz concerts and I always loved it. And so there was a few songs that really made me really like jazz music. And those are some of the most fond memories I have playing in bands or even on stage because we would like, compete in stages across the district, just different auditoriums from high schools and college campuses. Yeah. The level of quality of certain jazz bands were really high, I think, especially considering they were just seniors and juniors in high school.
Chris Miller: Yeah.
Shawn Abhari: But it was really fun.
Chris Miller: I did trumpet in middle school, 6th, 8th grade.
Shawn Abhari: There you go.
Chris Miller: And I remember we played the Pirates of Caribbean theme song.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah.
Chris Miller: And I was like, wow, I felt so good because there was this moment when all the trumpets come in because it goes dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun and then the browser bum bum bum bum bum bum bum. That felt so cool. But I thought trumpet was lame and I quit to go play soccer. And then in college I watched the movie Lala Land.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah.
Chris Miller: And I, ah, heard jazz trumpet and I realized I should have stuck around.
Shawn Abhari: Dude. Yeah, you still can.
Chris Miller: I know. Jazz trumpet sounds so pretty.
Shawn Abhari: It's so cool. Yeah, you get a nice cornet, you put a horn mute in it, you can really make some super cool sounding sounds.
Chris Miller: Have you thought about incorporating a horn into your music?
Shawn Abhari: I have, and I've tried even. But usually I'll end up replacing it with a synth or combining it with just turning it into a sampler, which is essentially just a synth that I'll try and manipulate. But you try to make everything, all the sounds fit in the same environment and so oftentimes it just doesn't fit or you really wanted to. And then you show people and they're like, oh, is that yeah, that horn doesn't really work. I tried it and it's been in many demos, even like my electric saxophone. And usually someone says, you guys should replace that for a guitar solo. I'm like, uh, okay, fine. I guess it's more palatable.
Chris Miller: Uh, yeah, that's got to be hard. The first horn sample you do, it's got to go through all the rounds of all of the people saying, yeah, it works.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah. I mean, at the same time, I think if we were really adamant like, nope, this sounds awesome and we loved it, then we could probably override other people's thoughts. But there's also a lack of confidence because maybe part of me knows, uh, I could see this hindering the track.
Chris Miller: Mhm whenever you were at the private school and you're interested in music, I imagine you go from the public school where several people interested in music transitioned to being one of the only ones interested in music. Did you have a niche group of friends that were also similar interests and you guys were like on the fringe.
Shawn Abhari: It's funny. At the private school that I went to for high school, um, every grade was kind of like sectioned off. Way more so than public school, I feel like. And so I had different seasons where I would befriend a group of kids that were older than me, let's say. But it was really hard for me to befriend the musicians that were in the grades above me and even beneath me. And so I kind of just started doing my own thing. And whenever I was a junior, I got my first laptop and started making electronic music.
Chris Miller: Okay.
Shawn Abhari: And that's when I remembered dubstep was really big at the time and I was just being a fool. I was just making stupid music. But I thought it was cool. I would record people in the hallway and say, okay, that's going to be the drop to my next song. And the song would build up, get out of my way when it would drop. And then people were like, oh, that's cool. But I was always kind of like, oh, that's the weird kid that just makes electronic music on his computer. But I kind of played into that. So I Djed my school's high school rave at the end of the year a couple of years in a row, which was super fun.
Chris Miller: Did you play the music you made?
Shawn Abhari: Uh, I think I might have one time. But it was a really good it was a fun experience, I think, just being able to do that. And now it's funny because one of my ways of making income is DJing weddings on the weekends.
Chris Miller: Yeah.
Shawn Abhari: So DJing in high school turned out.
Chris Miller: To be a skill income stream.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah, exactly.
Chris Miller: Do you remember Skrillex?
Shawn Abhari: I do, yeah. I was a big fan.
Chris Miller: Listening to those songs. It was like you're in a different world.
Shawn Abhari: Oh, um, dude, yeah, his world building is super cool.
Chris Miller: Does he still actively create music?
Shawn Abhari: Yeah, I mean, he owns a label, so I feel like he has, um, a hand in with most of the music that comes out of his music label, which is like an electronic label.
Chris Miller: I'm jumping around a little bit, but you mentioned how you got into electronic music and that's once you get your laptop, then you get to a point to where you decide to go to college and you choose to study audio production in college, which I feel like is a big deal.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah, well, initially I chose computer engineering.
Chris Miller: Oh, really? Because you went to a different university?
Shawn Abhari: M. Yeah, so I did my freshman and sophomore year at one university studying computer engineering. And then I kind of had a change of heart. And it wasn't necessarily because I wasn't good at it or didn't think it would be as much fun, but it was more that I didn't know if I would enjoy it in the long run. And the reason I was doing it was mainly just like, well this is the decision that I made so I'm just going to stick to it. The same way you were like going through school trying to get these grades. Why? Because you want to get an A? Of course. So I chose this degree. Well, I'm going to graduate and get my degree, then I'm going to get a job. And so somewhere along the way I started getting really inspired, um, even by specific YouTubers, I remember. And then realizing like, oh m, I can do something myself if I really believe in myself. And I even called my brother and I called different people and I was like, what do you think? Do you think I could actually do this? Can I make a living making music? And they were like, well if you really try, you probably could. And so that's always been my goal, just to be able to make a living making music. Um, and so I'm still on my way, still trying, but things are looking up.
Chris Miller: Yeah, well said, well said. Who's responsible?
Shawn Abhari: Casey NEISTAT YouTuber uh, yeah, he was one. It was a lot of the draw my life videos. So I would watch people do the whiteboard Quick draw and it would be like a ten minute video. And really quickly in ten minutes you would see like, um, the rise and fall. I'm kidding. But you would see kind of the trajectory that a YouTuber took, let's say, or maybe even like a comedian. They would interview them and do a draw. My life. And so most of these people always had some focal point where they decided to change or switch their entire trajectory. And I remember watching all these people and really thinking about that. And then at the end of that semester, uh, I broke up with my girlfriend and told and decided not to come back to school the next semester all on the same day. And so then from that point forward, it was like I've made this decision. And so I took that following summer and fall semester off to just focus on my music and music production and kind of where I wanted that to go. And I decided to go back and get my degree in music production. And that's where I met Wyatt.
Chris Miller: Wyatt enters the picture.
Shawn Abhari: Exactly.
Chris Miller: So who is Wyatt?
Shawn Abhari: Well, Wyatt Clem is one of my best friends and we met in music school the very first day that we went. We had both gone to get um, different degrees and then decided to switch to music production at like the same time in each of our lives. And so it kind of was a perfect fit. I had already started the music project called The Ivy and I was marketing myself as a band but it was only me at the time and I was writing music and I was putting it on Spotify and I was really trying. And whenever Wyatt joined the picture, I was like, hey, do you want to play some shows with me? Maybe sing a little bit? Maybe we can write some songs together. And we just kind of started writing songs together and putting them out right away. I was like, okay, this sounds really good. Let's finish it up and put it out there. Okay, let's do another one, let's do another one. And of course, I had removed my own personal songs from The Ivy's page before that, so it was kind of a whole new project just between him and I, and, yeah, it was just something that I believed it would work and that was kind of my entire basis for changing. It was just me believing in myself and thinking I could make something of just my skills.
Chris Miller: Were you nervous to let someone in on that journey to join you or were you relieved, like, oh, I'm no longer doing this alone?
Shawn Abhari: I always thought of it like, uh oh, I'm so thankful that someone is willing to help me out because that was my main mindset because initially Wyatt was even in another band. So any of his time that I was able to have felt like an honor, I was like, oh, thank you. That's so cool. So whenever we put out a song together, um, and we started getting positive feedback on it, I remember thinking like, oh, that's so cool. I hope he feels the same amount of honor that they're giving us for this song as I do.
Chris Miller: So how did you broach the do you want to be in a band with me?
Shawn Abhari: Well, so like I said initially I first was like, hey, do you want to play this end of semester show with me as part of The Ivy? But you could just be singing with me on stage probably because you felt.
Chris Miller: Like you didn't want to burden him because he's already gone through things.
Shawn Abhari: He was already in a band, so I didn't want it to come off like I was trying to steal him from another project. But he wasn't even the main singer in the other band. He was the lead guitarist and backup singer. And I was like, dude, your voice is incredible. You could make music with me and we'll make some super cool stuff. And we really liked similar genre of kind of alternative indie, like synth pop, kind of. And so whenever Wyatt would join me and help me out with this show, afterwards I was kind of like, do you want to just join The Ivy? And he's like, yeah. And that's whenever we put out our song together and started playing some more shows. But even at that time, he'll tell you that he was communicating to his other band, oh, uh, this is just a side project. I was like, you'll see, but that's because on the inside I was like, oh, we're going to get big. You just wait right. But it was more of just myself having a big heart or like a big heart to grow. I was like, oh, we're going to do it. We're going to do it. Just wait. Just wait. And so when everything started happening, I was really shocked, like, let's go. But part of me was also like, I knew it. I knew something good would happen. So that was exciting.
Chris Miller: Yeah. I remember one of my favorite moments with Wyatt was we all lived together, right? In college. All of us lived in the same dorm. And you all were on the first floor. I was on the fourth floor.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah.
Chris Miller: And I remember walking downstairs one day, walking through the hallway, and Wyatt was playing on his acoustic guitar, singing You Should Go and Love Yourself, uh, by Justin Bieber. And everybody was stopping and looking in the room because they're like, where is this voice coming from?
Shawn Abhari: That's awesome.
Chris Miller: They loved it. Yeah, it was funny because all these girls, um, looking in there like, who's singing? And I remember that moment being like, whoa, what skills you harness listening to him play, dude.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah, Wyatt. I mean, I remember also people coming up to me and telling me, dude, that guy's voice is incredible. Even my friends back home who had never even met him, I was just showing them, um, songs that Wyatt had put on SoundCloud. I was like, Listen to this.
Chris Miller: Isn't this guy good?
Shawn Abhari: And I told my friend Antonio, I was like, Tonyo, just wait. I'm going to get Wyatt to be in this band with me. And this was in January, and it wasn't until May that I actually asked him. And he was like, yeah, I'll be in the band with you.
Chris Miller: Wow. And so, yeah, that is awesome, man, because I feel as if that's one of the hardest things you have this thing you've been doing and bringing another person in. And then from there on, co creating it's a transition and a whole new journey.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah. I feel like our songwriting totally shifted, of course, from when it was just me to when it was Wyatt and myself. Wyatt brought in a whole different element of bluesy vibes, kind of, and even RMB or soulful vocal melodies, I would say. And then, um, Wyatt's, one of some of his biggest influences were John Mayer Radiohead and Coldplay. And so kind of having that mixed in with my pop punk Blink 182 electronicdeathcap for cutie. Bonnie Vertype was just kind of a cool I don't know, a cool hybrid of these different alternative styles of indie music cool. But the thing that we accidentally, uh, stumbled upon was the idea that it was like 80s sounding because I knew I'd heard all these cool synths that I remember one of my favorite artists, Porter Robinson at the time was using and it was just these thick sounding, like really crunchy, beautiful harmonic, um, synths really big and full. And when you put that and then you add a guitar on top of it and you add like some cool drums, big sounding, reverb drums and pretty vocals. Well, that's considered 80s um, influenced music because of mainly the big saw wave synths. And so it wasn't until we had already released our first EP, people were like, oh, your music sounds like 80s music. And we're like, oh, okay. And so then I kind of started leaning more into that for our next few singles and the following EP, even we kind of knew where our influences kind of were, but as we were making it, we didn't even realize it. You know what I mean?
Chris Miller: Yeah. It's almost as if people well, this is just what you described. People gave you that identity. Well, hold on, let me think about this. Yeah, they said, hey, this reminds me of this. And then you're like, oh yeah. Would you say that the 80s is still something you think of, uh, whenever you're songwriting or writing music?
Shawn Abhari: I try not to. So even the songs of ours that would be considered the most 80s did not start there. It was more like, oh, this is a really cool sound that I made. Or like, listen to this synth. This is a dope loop that we've made. And then we'll add drums to fit that, let's say. Or we'll add some guitar behind it or some synth bass behind it. Don't get me wrong, some of the songs that are influencing our songwriting are songs that were more like, um, 80s nostalgic leaning sounds. So then as we're kind of composing this track and figuring out the environment and filling it out, we might then pull from like, oh, this sounds like this, or this gives me the vibe of driving down the highway at this time. What could be cool in this? Let's add a whale sound in the background. So then you have this M dropping behind and it just adds this shine to your music. But there's also songs where specifically you have this mood in mind and you're like, oh, that kind of reminds me of like an 80s prom. And so then you do go into it with that. Um, but I think we're getting out of that, especially in the last couple of years. Um, and we're trying to go back to just making music that we like to make because there's been such an oversaturation, specifically in that 80s indie synth pop scene. We're kind of trying to I don't want to say get out of that, but move more towards just like, alternative indie music with synth influences. Because if you have a really cool sound that could still be like a staple piece, but it doesn't have to come from a specific time period.
Chris Miller: Totally. You know DJ Khaled?
Shawn Abhari: Sure, yeah.
Chris Miller: And at the beginning of his songs, he always has, uh, this DJ Khaled we the best khaled we the best. Yeah. Right. Music. And he puts that at the beginning of everything. And that makes me think of whenever you said it's almost as if you have iconic sound and you can put it in a lot of different songs. I m know that's way different. But it's like a signature, a trademark.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah, well, I think, uh, it's funny because it doesn't necessarily even have to be a sound. It could be a sound bite, it could be see, in my opinion, I think as long as the vocalist for that band is still singing over the track, that's the first thing that will tie everything together. But then also there's things we don't think about, such as the specific melodies and intervals that that singer is singing or that the person that wrote those guitar lines or synth lines wrote that is iconic to that specific musician. M you can even go on YouTube and find someone breaking down, like The Weekend, all of his tracks even taking off his vocals, you could say, well, you can tell that all of these tracks would belong to him because of these intervals or because of these chords. And so, whether you like it or not, and I've noticed this in our music too. If this song sounds like, uh, our first project, or if it sounds like our last project, there's still going to be certain melodic pieces or even rhythmic elements that we've kind of, uh, hung onto throughout the process, which ideally, they would stay subconscious and we wouldn't realize it. Because once you start realizing it too much, I feel like you can overdo it and kind of ruin a good thing.
Chris Miller: Right. Like that is your personal essence or that's the essence of your band, and it can be seen through all of your creations. Is this certain sound or this style as far as your main inspirations for creating music now, um, I'm curious. Let's give some shout outs right now. So whenever you're thinking about that next song, who are some people that you've listened to that you're like? Man, I would love to take a bit of that, uh, and put it in my recipe to make that next concoction.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah. So a few artists right now that I think are really doing it well and kind of pushing the boundaries would be a band called Joe. It's actually a guy, he's an artist and he makes and produces and writes all his music. And I've just been in love with all of his music for the past. J o mhm yeah. I didn't tell you this earlier, but that's Joe Keary from Stranger Things.
Chris Miller: Whoa.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah, that's his artist, um, project. It's sick, though. It's the coolest music because he produces everything. He's so talented.
Chris Miller: Ah, I don't know Joe Kerry from Stranger Things.
Shawn Abhari: He's like an actor.
Chris Miller: Okay. He's an actor.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah.
Chris Miller: And he produces music mhm and writes it and performs. Wow.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah, he's sick. And then I think other artists would, um, be that are relevant in my scheme or realm right now would be an artist called Dijon is also super cool. The production and the songwriting combined is what I'm really talking about for these guys. And so his production is super unique and different. I've noticed something that artist does is he'll grab sound bites of, let's say, a dinner table, and he'll kind of have breaks in his music where you just hear like chatter like a dinner conversation. And then he'll kind of start sing talking over it. And next thing you know, the beat comes back and you're like, oh, what the heck? That was cool.
Chris Miller: That's awesome.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah. And so he has that in quite a few of his songs. I would even call that one of his staple production things that it took. You don't necessarily notice it on the first listen through for some of his songs, but then later you're like, oh, whoa, that sounds like clinking of glasses or something like that. But there's different artists right now that I think are doing it really well, such as those guys. And even, um, there's a guy called Joji. And his music is kind of like he does a good job of making synth music not sound too, like, period based. Some of his stuff sounds more 80s, some of it sounds more 70s. Some of it even like almost like RMB 90s or early 2000s. But I think he does a good job of blending all of those together to make it kind of this future pop sound that we're hearing a lot more of these days.
Chris Miller: That's awesome.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah.
Chris Miller: That's becoming more and more popular. Or it seems to be more and more the it's in right now.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah, no, I think honestly, I feel like there was that surge of TikTok and TikTok sounds. And the problem with that is they're all very pandering and gimmicky like. Oh, yeah, of course this song is going to be popular because, uh, it slowed down with the reverb or in the back of the room kind of sounding or like listening to your favorite song while you're crying in the club's bathroom. You know what I mean? And it's all like, M, right?
Chris Miller: It's drowned out mhm to filter it.
Shawn Abhari: Out, like, with some reverb. So you don't really hear the high ends. But I think with most things in life, it's kind of like a seesaw. So we were super strong on the kind of gimmicky sounds. And I don't want to say pandering, but kind of like where it's just what would be the most ear grabbing to add to a real to make it blow up, let's say, or a TikTok video. So I think the response to that is a lot of music nowadays will take certain elements of those, maybe because they're hoping that it'll help that song become an audio for like a TikTok video. But I think it's done something cool in terms of production as a genre and as a whole throughout different genres. Because now producers are trying to be more experimental with those specific kind of like I don't want to say gimmicky, but yeah, it's like if you can have a couple cool gimmicky sounds in your song, it could really make your song pop. Then if it's just like straight guitar, bass, vocals, keys and drums throughout the entire song, it's not too much to satisfy.
Chris Miller: So now they're taking a bit of that and putting it into their music. They're implementing it in but it's not just all that. What's the upside? I, uh, mean, it seems like an obvious upside, but maybe you can provide a little more insight of music being made for Reels. And do you think people make just 32nd sound bites for Reels or do you think they make the song and then pull out the I mean, I'm sure both, but do you think there are people out there who are just making 32nd sound bites just with this could be viral for this situation?
Shawn Abhari: Yeah, there are certain producers, let's say, that'll specifically chop up and remix popular songs, let's say with little like an iPhone ding and then like the backing up of a construction truck or something, and they'll turn that into a 32nd TikTok audio. And I know of one producer in specific who's put out multiple and had great success strictly through those audios. And some of them are completely original even. But I would say that that, um, has influenced the music scene to where, as we all know, our attention span is becoming quite more like fickle. It's less long as it once was. And so now what I've noticed is songs are getting shorter and shorter. Not necessarily 30 seconds specific to TikTok.
Chris Miller: But like two minutes, maybe.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah, like 1 minute. And like, there's, uh, a couple of really popular songs. They're like minute 50, there's no bridge. It does like a really quick verse chorus. Really quick verse chorus and we're done. You know what I mean? And I think those songs are more like in the age of streaming. Well, if you really like that song, you're going to replay it right then and there. Probably okay, because it's only taken up two minutes of your time. Might as well let it take up four. And you can hear it all twice.
Chris Miller: Wow. So it's getting more streams. Wow.
Shawn Abhari: And I think it's a combination of streams being pushed so much and being the primary way people listen to music, but also with the attention span thing and Tiktoks and Reels emphasizing the fact that our attention spans are deteriorating.
Chris Miller: Yeah, they're becoming shorter because of all of the it's like we adapt to what we need to pay attention to. Right. And now we only need to pay attention for 10 seconds or 20 seconds or 30 seconds. And then we get quite good at it to where we can pay attention to things really well for that short amount of time. But I was in the clinic today with my mom, and while she was being seen, I was reading a book, and I was on page seven, and I was like, oh, man, this is rough. And it's stuff I love. So I definitely need to break that habit and hopefully get back in that book. But I can see how I'm surprised how that's affecting music. But I noticed on my way here, whenever I was driving into Oklahoma, I went to a song that I liked, and I clicked the radio, like, go to radio, and it suggested all these songs that were like it, and a lot of them were like, 210 a minute, 45. And it bummed me out because I liked the song, and I was like, Dang, I want there to be more of it.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah.
Chris Miller: Uh, I love Bridges. I think bridges are awesome. And I think I love the bridges in your songs because you have unique bridges a lot of times. What did you say?
Shawn Abhari: Yeah, I think we try to I'll say a lot of times, the songwriter's downfall is you'll write your intro, your verse, your chorus, and you're really proud of your chorus, maybe even a B chorus, and then you kind of get tired. And so then for your bridge, you either just come back to it later because you think I already have the bulk of the song done, but that is something that I try to do, is if I think that's a perfect opportunity to be experimental and play with certain sounds and certain things. And just like I can have fun.
Chris Miller: With it, uh, in your music, too.
Shawn Abhari: Nice.
Chris Miller: Your philosophy and that song you showed me today, the Bridge is a stargate, it takes you to a different planet and nice. I love that about your music. As I talk to you right now, I'm realizing that I'm going to have to do more than one podcast with you because we have so much to talk about with such limited time.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah.
Chris Miller: But, uh, think about you when you're sitting at the Sports Grill. The IV is a young band. You are hoping to get 1 million streams. Now, some people aren't even thinking about 1 million. They're thinking about four digits. They're thinking about three digits. Here's one of the questions. What would you be telling the songwriter who's sitting at the Sports Grill aspiring to hit these metrics if you're sitting next to him and he asks you a question about it? Uh, how do you approach giving advice to someone who was in your space seven years ago? Six years ago?
Shawn Abhari: Yeah. I mean, I would say ultimately, it's just keep writing music, and eventually you will be writing songs that you're feeling clearly excited about. Like, oh, there's something special here. And I think I hate to say it sometimes I'll. Hear someone show me a song and they're so psyched about it. But in the back of my mind, I'm like, uh, I can't really see an audience for this song.
Chris Miller: Mhm.
Shawn Abhari: So I think it's also kind of I don't want to say self awareness, but I'm saying the music you listen to, is that a really broad genre of music? You listen to multiple genres, or do you only listen to one specific genre? Because I think it helps to listen to and expose yourself to other types of music. Because if you kind of bring something in from this genre and this genre, and then you're able to write a song that wows you, then chances are it's going to wow multiple types of people. So I think if I had to talk to someone or myself seven years ago, I would say, just believe in the songs that you're writing and they'll show for themselves. It's kind of like you're burying your seed now, but eventually later you'll reap fruit. Yeah, that's the hardest thing about music is you put a lot of time into it, a lot of work into it, and it's not even like, okay, cool, now here's your payout. And you're not even thinking about the payout. Like, I never did and I still never do whenever I'm writing, you know, you don't think about that. You're only doing it because you want to create music. Because you feel like you have something to get off your chest or get out there. And so it's more of a form of expression. And if you really love it, then might as well share it. There's no harm. The worst that could happen is nothing comes of it. But if you keep doing that, if you only put out four songs in a year, and you only wrote four songs that year and only one of them does well, then you might really be bummed about a 25% success rate. But if you wrote twelve songs in a year, and six of them did really well, well, then that's 50%. That's double 25%. And from there on, and I remember something that really stuck to me, was having a conversation with a songwriter who's written for platinum record winning artists and them telling me about certain songs that they had gotten no credit for that they'd written. And whenever I asked them, I was like, what do you do in those situations? And they said, uh, it's just a song. I try and write four to five a week. And so it's just one song, another one will come.
Chris Miller: Wow.
Shawn Abhari: And that was their response, like, oh, it doesn't matter. Another one will come. And I was like, that's a cool, really good way to think about it.
Chris Miller: Wow. This is a personal question for me because I started making this podcast and I'm still figuring out all the analytics and making sure I get all of my stats in one place. But this is growing. It's small. It's a teeny, uh, tiny show. Yet I still find myself, OOH, let me look at the stats. How do you prevent yourself from like, what's your philosophy there? Because it's not sustainable to keep looking at all the tabs. Let me look at that. Yeah, you know what I mean?
Shawn Abhari: Yeah, I mean, it's funny because I'll notice whenever there's an upward trajectory, I'm more excited to look at it the next day. I'm like, I'm so excited. And then if it disappoints me, I'm less likely to the next day because I'm like, ah, we're on a downtrend, there's no point even looking at it. And it's probably the same with my bank account, but I would say that's, um, completely secondary. It feels like a social media. It's like, this is not where my worth actually comes from. But it's interesting to see it's interesting to find out where my worth comes from would be if I received a really sweet message on Instagram or if someone in person came up to me and told me, this thing that you're doing is impacting me in this way. This positively, ideally. And so I think looking at the stats, it's good in terms of the business side and the logical side. Like, okay, well, clearly this marketing campaign worked in this area and didn't work in this area. How can we improve on that? And so that's a positive way to refer to your analytics. But then moving forward, I would say just trying to not let the numbers affect your day. Similarly to tips working at a place, whether you get tipped or not, you shouldn't give people that much energy to make or break your entire day.
Chris Miller: Yeah, that's good. Thank you for sharing that. Because I used to work at this pizzeria whenever over the summers in Undergrad. And I remember there were several days where I left with zero tables. It was a rooftop pizzeria. Nobody wanted to sit on a rooftop.
Shawn Abhari: No way.
Chris Miller: Summer of Oklahoma. And I had to reframe in my mind, hey, my success here isn't about how much money I leave with. Instead, my success is going to be how good I get at talking to customers. Uh, so I changed the metric of success. And that's something that I need to be aware of with this is my whole goal is to improve it being able to connect with the people and talk to people and in doing so, showcase and provide examples of what that looks like for others to connect with. Right. So it's a good thing to remember and be reminded of. So last question for you. Last question for you.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah.
Chris Miller: What's one thing you wish more people knew about you?
Shawn Abhari: That's a tough one, huh? I guess I wish more people knew about my interest in many different things in different areas. I don't want someone to think that I'm closed minded to other opportunities. You know what I mean, I like the idea of people viewing me as, oh, I have an idea. Let me run this by Sean. He'd be interested in this and kind of being able to be like an open ear for people.
Chris Miller: Well, I'm going to bring some ideas to you. I already am. I've already brought a lot to you tonight. Uh, and your ideal machine, it's ideation. Uh, it's a skill. It's one of the skills on strengths. Finder ideation. I imagine that may pop off on your sheet. Let's do it again.
Shawn Abhari: Okay.
Chris Miller: Because you've done it before. You have your own podcast. I have plug the pod.
Shawn Abhari: Okay, well, hey, make sure to go on. I'm just kidding. I'm not going to plug the pod.
Chris Miller: Not plugging the pod, but I definitely am plugging the band. Guys, the ivy. It is so awesome. I'm so proud of you and of Wyatt. And I remember sitting at the sports grill talking about that big number, and then now you all are at a different number. And like we said, the numbers aren't the principle, but being able to see the growth and the creativity is awesome.
Shawn Abhari: Yeah, it's really exciting.
Chris Miller: Yes.
Shawn Abhari: Well, I'm proud of you, Chris. You started this podcast. It's going great. I love listening to the episodes. Yeah, I do every time.
Chris Miller: When do you listen?
Shawn Abhari: I listen in my car.
Chris Miller: But like, uh, when you're commuting?
Shawn Abhari: When I'm commuting.
Chris Miller: But actually when you don't really need to pay attention.
Shawn Abhari: No, usually. In fact, the episodes that you texted me just listen to in my bed at night as I'm laying in bed.
Chris Miller: That's awesome. Okay, well, folks, we will see you m next time.
Shawn Abhari: All right, guys, it's been a great time talking here with my friend Chris. Would you mind if I did the close off one more time?
Chris Miller: No, bro. We say, well, folks, will see you next time. That's how I ended, bro. You missed.
Shawn Abhari: All right, guys. Well, thanks so much for joining me here with my friend Chris Miller. We'll, uh, see you next time on the Talk to People podcast with Chris Miller.
Chris Miller: Talk to people. Cup podcast. You heard it from Sean. We'll see you next time, folks.