#15 - Paul Harwerth: A Guide to Creating Joy, The Art of Social Media

Chris Miller: All right. And we are officially live.
Paul Harwerth: We are officially live.
Chris Miller: We are back. The second time. Okay. For the audience.
Paul Harwerth: Yes.
Chris Miller: We were just talking for ten minutes, and I wasn't rolling.
Paul Harwerth: That's okay.
Chris Miller: I am, um, learning so much right now. And we were just talking about building our own really creative enterprises.
Paul Harwerth: Yeah, that's the goal. I mean, the challenge of being a creator online right now is that, uh, it's a turbulent landscape, and it's a very saturated turbulent landscape. So when you're working with on a business level marketers, that's like, literally our job as influencers. And I hate that word, but it is exactly what we're paid to do to influence. And when I was talking to this buddy of ours about he was really grilling us on, like, well, what's the goal? Where are you going? What's the next steps? I was afraid. I'm afraid to say what I want, because every time I've said that, it hasn't worked, it hasn't happened. And the one time I stopped and I said, no, I'm just going to do this because it's fun, that's when it worked. Now I'm afraid to claim anything because I'm like, if I claim it, it's going to fall apart. If I claim any one motivation or one goal or one brand, then it's like, well, then it'll fall apart, because it always has. And I know that that's not great business wise. Like, yeah, you want to know where you're going, and I know how the industry works. You have an audience. You sell that audience through yourself to marketing agencies. You create content for them that influences your people to take action. Now, that's kind of ridiculous sounding when you think about it, but it's essentially what I know. The business works. So I'm, um, essentially doing that now. And I think that I was talking to a business manager not a business manager, a social media manager. And he asked, he's like, well, what do you want? That was the first time this was ever asked to me. And this was in the fall of last year, the first time someone was like, what do you want? Where are you going? Listen to that. And that's great. Yeah. Downtown city noise. They love coming for us.
Chris Miller: We're not in Kansas anymore.
Paul Harwerth: No, we're downtown. Um, here they come. They're going to drive right past.
Chris Miller: I wish them the best. And whenever they're enterprise, they're doing they.
Paul Harwerth: Uh, turned a corner. Now they're driving away. The worst is actually, honestly, the police cars are pretty mild. It's the fire engines. Yeah, they're, like, very loud. Anyway, back to where I was at, um, this social media management m manager. He was asking us, what do you want? And Luke and I kind of floundered for, like he let us talk for, like, ten minutes. And then he stopped us and he said, you still haven't told me what you want. And I said, I'm afraid. It took me a minute, really? At a time like this. Uh, it took me a while to get to the point where we told him. I was just like, I'm afraid to claim anything because it's never worked. And he's like, but it is working for you now. What do you want? Where are you going? My friends, austin Emeritus of Costa Mayor when they talked to this guy, which is their manager, um, and that's how we got to have this conversation. When they called him, they called him out of a cold call. They found out who he was, and they just said, we need a manager and we want him. Called him. And Meredith said on the phone, she said, we are going to be the next Nappy tabs. We are doing that through the veins of social media and marketing that way. But we already are on our way to be that, and we need help getting there. And he said, awesome, let's sign. And the reason was that she knew exactly where they wanted to go. It wasn't to be a social media influencer. It was to be a business, to be someone else. And Luke and I don't have that. I'm like, yeah, I've been creating media for other people forever. Uh, I Can Create ads. I've worked for Red Bull. I've worked for so many people as far as producing ads and things for them. But what do I want to be? It's like, well, I don't really just want to be the camera guy. I love that. I love doing that. And I will create until you're good at it. Uh, yeah, I'll do that until I die. But that's not what I want. I want to be a personality. I want to be an influencer. But I can't dance forever. I'm 30.
Chris Miller: Are, uh you already breaking down?
Paul Harwerth: Oh, yeah, dude. I'm dancing alongside these kids that are 18, and they're, like, throwing stuff that you're like you want me to throw that? Oh, no. But I'll try. I won't do very good, but I'll try. And it's hard because I have seen myself get better as I train. But I know that I'm already past that prime that some of these kids are just eking toward.
Chris Miller: For competitive dance.
Paul Harwerth: Uh, for competitive, yeah. And I'm not trying to compete either. I'm literally just dancing online. That sounds so dirty, but, like, literally.
Chris Miller: Just creating creating joy.
Paul Harwerth: Joy via dance online. But I can't do that for many more I mean, I can do it for many more years, but I can't do it at that level.
Chris Miller: At that Dance Dance Revolution.
Paul Harwerth: Quite good. I really like the Wii game. That was the Michael Jackson Wii game. That was so fun. I played that the other day with my friends, with some dance friends. They're really good at it, but they play it all the time, so, um, they have the advantage. But, man, I love dance games like that.
Chris Miller: So I'm trying to figure out why as well. For my yeah, the why enterprise, my pursuit. And that's something I go back and forth on all of the time. And it's really hard to figure out. So how long did it take for you to get to a place to where you're like, oh, there's traction here.
Paul Harwerth: Oh yeah. It took close to what was it? So 2012 we started, and it wasn't until 2020.
Chris Miller: Wow.
Paul Harwerth: So it took a long time.
Chris Miller: I shouldn't feel discouraged after three months.
Paul Harwerth: No. I saw, uh, a TikTok the other day actually, about this, and it said, out of our world of the population, 10% of people will create or will desire to create. Of that 10%, 10% of them will or the 1% will actually create. Of that 1% making that 100%, 10% will continue to create until something happens. Mhm. So just keep creating. There's nothing out there that's going to tell you you can make it this way or you can do it that way. Like, Luke and I literally tried, I tried to be at first it was like doing like, update videos for our we were working at a camp. So for our supporters, that's what started it. And then in college, we were like copycatting, uh, other creators that we liked. And we wanted to create this network of people. And that was kind of our dream was to be fun keachy, like little music videos and lip syncs to stuff, but also like, be personalities. And that didn't work. It worked. I know people that followed me through that era, which is cool. It was like maybe 30 people, but still that's still cool. That's still influence, right? That's still 30 people in a room. That's a lot. So that was cool. But then kind of fell off later. Half of college started daily Vlogging after college, tried to be like Casey Neistat. That didn't work. It was a steep bar. It was two years of that. That was honestly not a lot of sleep. And I was working full time and it was a lot. And it took a pretty heavy beating on my body and some of those types of things. But I did it and I learned a lot. So it's not wasted time creating, but it didn't succeed. If you think air quote succeed. And that was never profitable. We got to do some really cool stuff. People offered to take us to cool places, but it wasn't like a monetary, uh, success. I was still working full time. And it wasn't until 2020 when we said screw it all, like, literally, I ended, I think what was it? 2018. We floundered from 2018 is when I stopped daily Vlogging and we made some things, but it was literally our socials go. Pretty dark from for 2019. There's like some posts here and there, but it's pretty dark. 2019, 2020 hit early. Uh, 2020. We got a TikTok and uh, my friend Wes there was a couple of different conversations that were had around TikTok, but it was kind of like, just dance, dance on TikTok. Why not? And we were like, that's true. We're not doing anything else. We always wanted to be YouTubers. So it was always kind of like, put all your effort there. But it never worked. And it never worked, and it never worked. And then we're like, fine, we'll just dance on TikTok. And it was literally for no other reason than just for fun. And then 2020, the pandemic hit, and we start all of a sudden, I think, our first dance video, we saw better numbers. And it was literally we didn't even know how the app worked. We didn't know how you could record, like, to music in App. So we just literally filmed in App, a video of us dancing to a Kpop song that we choreographed on the spot, just on our TV. So like, it was our TV speakers playing, recording on the phone. It was so jank. But the numbers there were better than anything we'd seen recently on YouTube or Instagram or anything. So we were like, what? What? A lot. And M, then a friend of ours from Australia was like, hey, can you do this trendy dance? I'll send you a little tutorial. I said okay. Great. Cool. She sent us a tutorial. We did that dance video and it kind of blew up. I was like, not kind, I mean, in in my my numbers now, no. But then comparatively to all the other numbers we're seeing, it was like, what? And we literally just told ourselves, like, don't worry about it. Just continue having fun with this. You're enjoying it. Just have fun. And that's what we did. And here we are. So when people ask me, what do you want? It's like, literally, I've wanted something for so long that hasn't worked that if I want it, I'll lose it. Mhm, it won't happen then. So why want something that I'm never going to get? Why heart? Why break my heart over something? But if you don't ever pursue something, then you can never get there. So it's like that balance of figuring it out of like, what do I want here? And I've always wanted to dance online. I've always wanted to dance in shows. Like, I just got cast in my first professional musical this summer at 30, partially because I've never tried, because I didn't think I was good enough. And I don't think I was prior to this time. I feel like I've grown a lot over the past two, three years as a dancer. But going to that audition and being called back and then being staying through this process and being all this stuff, and then that was a bizarre experience for me. Because up until that point, other than community theater, I'd never been wanted in that environment, in that world. And so it was odd. And I've never tried. Because even though I wanted that, I've always wanted to be on Broadway. Right. Like dancers do, or to back up somebody, uh, on tour. Like, I'd love that, but I don't think I could do that many shows in a row. That's a lot for this old body. But it would be fun.
Chris Miller: Yeah.
Paul Harwerth: And so I've never pursued anything because even though I wanted it, I didn't want it enough. And so now it's like, people are asking me what you want? And it's like, I want a lot of things, but I'm afraid to even ask for them. I'm afraid to give verbal light to any of it.
Chris Miller: Sure.
Paul Harwerth: So that's a long answer for a very long answer for that question.
Chris Miller: It's a great answer. And even from the jump, the way you started it by saying you started here. And it has been this whole entire process, and a lot of that process that I think a lot of people don't think about, especially if you haven't created something, if you haven't put stuff out there. But all of the psychological, uh, hoops you jump through, like, even now, whenever I was driving down here, it's like, so what even is the podcast about?
Paul Harwerth: Right?
Chris Miller: And I have written so many things and talked about all of this stuff, but every day I'm like, HM. And then there's all of the pressure of like, well, what do I create? How do I spend my time? Am I spending my time right?
Paul Harwerth: Am I wasting it? Yeah.
Chris Miller: Is there better ways for me to do that? So all of the psychological hoops that you go through in that whole process, uh, there's no guidebook for it, and it's a bit exhausting. So to hear your perspective of that process and that's exciting about the first professional.
Paul Harwerth: I'm very excited about it. Yeah. Honestly, it was such a bizarre experience. The only reason I went to that audition is because my friend west, and he was like, just treat it like a free dance class. Because I told him, I was like, no, they're not going to want us. They're going to cut us on the first round.
Chris Miller: What a good friend, by the way.
Paul Harwerth: Yeah. And he was like, go treat it like a free dance class. Who cares? If they say no, they're they say no. And that's the no you already had when you went in.
Chris Miller: Mhm.
Paul Harwerth: If they say yes, that's different. Right? So might as well try. And I think that even when it comes down to and I don't have it all figured out, I'm still trying to figure everything out, like, creatively about what our brand is, what it's going toward. Luke and I were panicking. The beginning of this year has been slow. The economic downturn hit influencers pretty hard. Not every influencer, but us hard. It hit us at Christmas, which is most people were getting most people make the most revenue around Thanksgiving to Christmas. We did not. We got missed in that cycle, which is fine. That happens. I'm not blaming anybody for that. Um, honestly, our numbers were down. We were kind of floundering to figure out how do it stay relevant? Um, what do we change all that stuff? TikTok started favoring storytellers, and Luke and I are not great storytellers in the short form. And so we kind of panicked, which is fine. And, um, honestly, our numbers weren't great. So I don't see why any advertisers would have wanted to work with us in that era. But that meant January, February, you have net. So even though we were getting work in January, February, we aren't getting paid until April. So on a business cycle, you're thinking, what am I going to do? So this other guy that we're photographing units for, like, I've run a production company for many years, so I have other clients, other people that I can do work for. I don't like spending my time doing that because I'd rather put it into this business venture that we're in now. But sometimes, like, Luke the other day, he was like, uh, Paul, do we know people that need headshots? Do we need to put out, like, advertisements for a headshot clinic? Do we need to do, um do you want to try to put on, like, an event where you do, like, a master class for creating? What can we do to start generating income streams? Income streams. We need other income streams. And I don't like to think about it. I would rather just create and hope things work out. But Luke's the businessman. He's the CEO. I'm just the CEO. So we had to start thinking about it. And what's floating our company right now is literally photographing vacation rental units, which is awesome. And honestly, the fact that my friend, uh, that is our boss on that environment hires us as much as he does is incredible. He's literally floating us through this era because we have no other. Uh, like, Luke and I were both kind of like, do we go get jobs? What are we doing?
Chris Miller: And it fits perfectly for the creative side of the house because you get to go to oh, yeah, x location, Y location.
Paul Harwerth: We get to go to these cool vacation unit places and, like, curse out. We were just in Cursor, which is, like, so cool. And I love the island, but then it's really hard, I think, in those environments, sometimes expectations are hard. So when we go, yes, we are not paid as influencers. We are literally paid as photographers. But he found us via social, uh, media. Totally fine. The expectations are challenging because the expectation is that we come, and it's just a fun place to be. You can create maintenance content. So there'll be times where people like, hey, I don't need help the rest of the day. Take the car. Go create now, on top of the stress of that job that you're doing. I don't always feel like creating at that point. I want to go take a nap. I am tired. Uh, but this is the time you have to go create. And the expectation is to go create. And I'm a people pleaser. So I'm like, oh, okay. So we got to go create even if we have nothing to create. And so sometimes I need to learn as a human, it's okay to be like, okay, I'm going to go take a nap. Mhm, there's nothing to create here. And if nothing happens, I'm not contracted to make any content here. I don't have to now. Is that kind of, like, sad for him if he sees that, oh, you didn't even make any content. Are you upset with me? It's like, no, I'm not upset with you, but, um, he's my friend, so he would tell me that. But I'm also stressed out about this work that we're doing here because we don't have stuff in a row, and that's just challenging. So the stress of me trying to figure out how to get all this work done in the time that we have allotted, but nothing is falling into place, and all of it's going to fall into place on one day. And there's no way for Luke and I to do it all in one day. So how can I facilitate more of that people? So in that time that we have off, you're technically still working, trying to communicate to homeowners, hey, can we get in today? Obviously, they're doing most of that communication, but that doesn't mean I'm not stressed about it and therefore not really in the mood to go out and dance and make joy and try to bring joy into the world. But sometimes it's a good challenge, and it's not always bad yeah. To have I'm a wolf waffle there. But it's sometimes good to have that adversity adversity to kind of thrust you into place of like, where's my head at? Am I here just to be stressed out? No. I am literally on a beautiful island with incredible blue water. Let's go find some blue water and dance in front of it. And it brings me joy just to look at it.
Chris Miller: I will watch it.
Paul Harwerth: Yeah, right. My parents I facetimed my nephews and nieces from, uh, cursor. And just on a whim, it was just kind of, like, random. And I was like, they texted us, and I was like, oh, let's call them. So we called them and we showed them the blue water. And then, um, Ashley, my sister in law, she was like she's like, oh, you want to go see? You want to see what's outside of our house? They went outside and they're like, all that snow that's on the picnic table is new. And it was over a foot of snow.
Chris Miller: Oh my God.
Paul Harwerth: It was that day. She's like, yeah, between like, 04:00 a.m. And now and it was like, 03:00 in the afternoon. I was like, Holy cow. And I'm over here in the perspective, right in the moment. I'm, like, stressed out about all this work I have to do, but if I just shift my perspective and say no, how blessed am I. Mhm what God has given me here is something I should cherish. Not something I should just stress out and rush through, but to open my eyes and cherish it. And I think even I was talking to some other creators, and that's a big thing for a lot of them, is to like sometimes we get stressed out in the moment of all this work we have to do. Even today, I have two days before I leave again. I just want to sleep in my own bed. But take these times, these moments, to create and enjoy the fact that I get to create for a living, even if it's not what I want to be creating right now. Right? Like, I'm just taking photos of houses, and I'm playing maid because they don't have the bedding done. So you're literally taking one bedding, like, four pillows and bedding, and you're literally making a bed, taking photos.
Chris Miller: You're stripping the bed, all the photos.
Paul Harwerth: Going to the next one, doing it there, and you're literally just playing maid. And it's like, this is not my job. But marvel in the wonder of where you are right now, because if you don't, you'll just be bitter.
Chris Miller: Yes.
Paul Harwerth: And look, and I thought about this while we were there, because it was like, I'm just frustrated about this. I was like, yes, but being frustrated about it doesn't help you do it better if we're frustrated about it. Yeah, that is fair to be frustrated. That that is not your job and you're being asked to do it, but just being frustrated about it isn't going to fix anything. Mhm but if we just change our perspectives, say, thank you for this opportunity, we're not sitting behind I'm not sitting behind a desk right now editing for a corporation. I hate that. I hated that. I've done a lot of that, and it's not bad, honestly. Some of the work is fun, but most of it is miserable.
Chris Miller: But you personally hate it.
Paul Harwerth: I personally hate it. I do not want to sit in a cubicle. Mhm but I am in cursor, photographing vacation homes that are pretty I can get behind that. Like, when I say it out loud in my heart, I'm like and then.
Chris Miller: You zoom out, and then you zoom.
Paul Harwerth: Out and you're like, Wait, but where am I? What did I get to do? My boss, uh, the guy that runs the management company, is a friend of ours, and he's the guy that was drilling me originally about this just a couple weeks ago. And I was just like, Dude, I don't know. I don't know what I want, because I'm doing what I want. I just want to do it more. I want to do more of it. And he was like, okay, that's fair. But where does it go from there? I was like, I don't know. Because if I want it, if I claim it, then it won't happen.
Chris Miller: So does that give you anxiety?
Paul Harwerth: Totally. Totally. I don't even know why, because who cares? Luke and I were strategizing the other day, and Luke and I are both pretty scattered people. We both have ADHD, and the best way, so not in the best way. It's literally chaos. But today, we literally made lists about how much we had to do today. And then I was texting a buddy, and the information has nothing to do with him. I did not need to, but for my brain, I needed to type it out.
Chris Miller: That's what's up next, is text.
Paul Harwerth: Yeah. And so I was like, texting him. He's like, hey, do you have time to do this? And I was like, uh, yeah, after I do this, this, this, and this, and then I might be able to do that, but I need to do this, this, and this first. Those are, like, all other things from lists. And I'm like, but if I don't say them, if I don't write them, I forget them because I'm so scattered. It's like, not good. It's bad.
Chris Miller: Something you had said that made me think was you had a decision to where you could commit to theater, but at the same time, you were also doing this creative pursuit of creating your own content. And you had mentioned that, ah, Luke was he knew that you wouldn't be able to creatively give the best to both things, which is something that I'm still learning. There's a limit to creativity. You only have so much.
Paul Harwerth: Yeah.
Chris Miller: And it's hard.
Paul Harwerth: If you have more hours in the day, you burn out. Dude, Daily Vlogging sucks because you are literally like every time I jump in a car. Luke, to this day, still drives all the time. I very rarely drive, and it's not because I don't like to drive. I will drive, but Luke will generally always jump in the driver's seat first. And the reason he will is because when we were Daily Vlogging for those two years, anytime we got in the car, I had a backpack, and that laptop came out of that backpack the minute we sat down in the car, and I edited. And that was the only way we could do it because I'd be up till 04:00 A.m. Every night, and I was killing myself to do this. I remember we went to a conference. This is so random. Really random. Side note story, but it's kind of funny. We were at a conference at Vidcon in La. While Daily Vlogging the first year we went, I was day of Meaning. I couldn't edit until that night, so I literally had to edit that day's footage that night and then upload it and then starting in the next day. That's brutal. I just slept very little in those days. Mhm, I think it was right after Vidcon when I literally got sick because I was like, I couldn't keep up. I said, no, I'm going to take a day off, and then I'm going to edit the following day. So basically, I would film. But while I was filming that day's episode, I was editing the previous day's episode so I could edit throughout the day as opposed to only editing at night. Because I was like, I can't keep doing this. But that first year when we were at Vidcon, we all day at a conference. You are wiped. You are just emotionally, physically, creatively wiped. I get back to the hotel and I have to edit for 4 hours because you filmed so much content. And so the sun is coming up and I'm finishing the edit, and we have to be back at that conference at nine, and the sun is coming up, and you're like, upload. Okay, I got to go to bed. I hope this thing uploads before we have to leave again because I have to take this computer with me. And so I lay down for like 2 hours, get up, we go to the conference that night. Same thing. Do it again.
Chris Miller: Did you die at the end of this?
Paul Harwerth: Go to Disneyland. A full day at Disneyland. My first day ever at Disneyland. Fell in love with the place. Filmed literally so much content because I fell in love with the place. Got back to the hotel, the airbnb we were staying at, and edited again until sunrise. I think I saw the sunrise every night. That like four or five day trip. And that's when I got sick because I was like I wasn't sleeping. I was just so tired. And I remember, uh, one of the girls that was with us on that trip, she was, uh, Luke's girlfriend at the time. And somebody at the conference, because Luke and I are like, energizer bunnies when we're around people. And somebody was like, do they ever slow down? And she said, oh yeah, put them in an Uber. And they're like, what do you mean? It's like they're out. Bam. We would literally sit in an Uber and just conk back. And I would that's where you'd fall. It'd be like a five minute trip in an Uber. And we wham both of us out. Then we get to where we're going, whoop. And be back at it. And it was like, not healthy, but that was what we had to do at the time, and we didn't know any better. And so then once I figured out that editing system, I had a much better opportunity. I remember I was talking to a friend recently. He's like, do you remember when you'd come over to our house for a movie night, the. Movie would start, and I would set a table up for you in the back. I was like, yeah, to edit? Yeah.
Chris Miller: Wow.
Paul Harwerth: I wouldn't enjoy the movies. Like, I'd go over at somebody's house for a movie. I'd do the social interaction thing before the movie would start. Luke would get to watch the movie, and I'd edit. And then we got to a point where Luke was rough cutting. So, like, that night when I was finishing the edit, he'd go through and rough cut the Vlog. And then the next day, I had a lot less to do, so he created systems. But man, that daily Vlog sucked. But I got really fast.
Chris Miller: So why did you upload daily? Was it something on your end, or did you think, that my audience I.
Paul Harwerth: Was literally an idiot. That's all it is. I was an idiot. So Casey NICET said something. He said, if you want to make it on this platform, you've got to produce daily.
Chris Miller: Okay?
Paul Harwerth: And so I was working at a production company at the time, and I told that to my boss, and he said, because we both loved Casey Neistat, me and my boss. And I was like, that's what he said. And Matt was like, well, uh, you got to do it.
Chris Miller: Yeah.
Paul Harwerth: I said, okay. So at work, we'd be filming goofing off, showing behind the scenes of, like, editing behind the scenes of shooting. Cool. Um, we have BTS with some really cool shoots that we did. And then I quit. He couldn't pay me very much, which was fine. Like, at the time, it was a small company, and I was making scraping by, which was good for fresh out of college. I didn't have any debt, which was really nice. Um, I worked my way through college as a wedding photographer, so I didn't have any debt, which was really awesome. Um, drove old cars and made it work. And then right after that, I went and worked for Cerner, which was hard. Uh, we were working in hospitals, and you're working twelve hour days. You can't film that. So when you get off, you had to make enough content to make a video. And so we'd go and explore the areas we were in, or we would do, I don't know, whatever. And sometimes we'd be on opposite shifts. So I'd be working days, luke would be working nights. We'd have to figure out how to swap content. And that was brutal. And I didn't think anybody cared. Our numbers were about 100 views a day. Like, each episode had about 100 views. Some would go bigger than that if it was like a searchable topic or something. And I just didn't know. I was so burnt out creatively that I was just trying to make it work. And I was just, like, dying. Because Casey had said, you had to make it. You got to go daily.
Chris Miller: Totally.
Paul Harwerth: And so I, uh, prided myself in never missing an upload, which for most daily Vloggers is not unheard of. But the only time I missed is when we were there was two times in Haiti. We went to Haiti and we didn't have Internet. So I couldn't upload for ten days. So that was a mega Vlog when we came back. That's still one of our highest viewed videos. And then Bangladesh. We did. I think we were there for twelve days. And so those twelve days we couldn't upload. Then we got back, and those went up in a daily increments. So I edited them while I was there. And then I had like, twelve days. And then those twelve days were one Vlog, but it was really luke and I were both traveling for work at that point, so it was not even, um, worthwhile. It was a very chunky Vlog that was just kind of like whatever. But other than that, it was every day. And every day we uploaded.
Chris Miller: So what happened on, um how did you decide I'm m not going to upload daily?
Paul Harwerth: So it was March, the end of March. It was either right after Haiti or right after Bangladesh. There was a lot of travel that happened right before the end, and it was just a lot. And we were tired, and it wasn't work. And nobody cared. It felt like nobody cared.
Chris Miller: Like the analytics wise. Just numbers.
Paul Harwerth: Yeah.
Chris Miller: No.
Paul Harwerth: And we were not making m. There was no financial, no money. No money.
Chris Miller: Yeah.
Paul Harwerth: I'm literally murdering myself and there's no money. And I'm burnt out creatively. You can only make so many ChemX montages. Like, I mean, honestly, every day was a coffee montage. And it was pretty much the same.
Chris Miller: Thing every day, where you're making the coffee and there's different shots.
Paul Harwerth: Oh, yeah. It was Peter McKenna. Yeah. So I originated that.
Chris Miller: Nice.
Paul Harwerth: But Peter McKenna was big about it. He was better than I was.
Chris Miller: All the different cuts.
Paul Harwerth: Oh, yeah. So many different cuts. Crazy. Anyway, I don't know, it was just, like, so hard. It was like, how do you make a day in your life interesting? And a lot of, like, Casey Neistat, he would educate and tell stories. I just couldn't get ahead of it, to plan it. I was just trying to survive.
Chris Miller: You're flying by the cedar pants every day.
Paul Harwerth: Every day. Just, uh, telling you what I was doing. And I remember somebody telling me they were just like, I'm just tired watching your Vlogs and I'm not even doing it.
Chris Miller: Interesting, because I was tired.
Paul Harwerth: Yeah, literally, there would be times where we were like, we just have to go to a coffee shop today to do something, to go somewhere, to show some pretty broll of somewhere. And Tracy, my, uh, friend Tracy, she was on the podcast a while ago.
Chris Miller: Former guest.
Paul Harwerth: Yeah, former guest. Tracy. I love her so much. She says one of my greatest strengths is the broll. But I think I agree with her in the sense that I'm good at it, but it lacked story. And I could tell a story through B roll, but it wasn't a compelling story. I lacked the inherent skill of formulating something that was worth watching. That sounds brutal, but it's true. It wasn't good. I look back and I cringe, because I'm like, we were trying to find ways to add value. We were like, how can we add value in this? And I think the only time that actually worked is I made a video. We were doing a music video for my friend Matthew's, uh, YouTube channel. It's called corn. He loved corn. But it was Boys by Charlie XCX. But he parodied it with corn. And he was like, I was really thinking about corn, and it was so funny. I loved it. I helped him film it. It was great. But the chorus, we literally went to the feed store and got corn. Like, a bag of corn. It was great. And what we did with that bag of corn is in the basement of this house we were living in in Independence, Missouri. We threw corn. So Luke is in the back. We're filming it at 60 frames per second, and then he's singing it twice the speed. So the song is fast forwarded, and then in post, we slow it down to 30 frames per second, meaning 60 frames per second becomes 30 frames per second. Luke's home from the grocery store with corn. With corn. But the video my vlog about making that video was a stretch. That was how to make m your mouth match up to us, uh, in slow motion. Yeah, it was like a tutorial, which I really should have been doing more of anyway, because I'm a wealth of stupid knowledge.
Chris Miller: Because you're learning it all.
Paul Harwerth: Yeah, I loved it. Yeah, I'm learning about it. Might as well talk about it. And I think I never wanted to, because I felt like I wasn't a professional. I worked with guys that were professionals, and I didn't feel like I ever was one.
Chris Miller: Do you consider yourself a professional now? When it comes uh, when people ask.
Paul Harwerth: Me, I say yes, but I think inside, no. I think no professional really feels like a professional. I was talking to somebody the other day that's, like, so good. He's like, I don't still feel like I'm very good. And I was like, I hate you. Um, but also, I understand that because I'm there, too. Somebody, when I first started out, would look at what I have here in this apartment, and they would have been like, you're a professional. You have it all.
Chris Miller: Me.
Paul Harwerth: And I'd be like, no, I don't. I literally have that's a cheap light. That's a cheap light. I could spend a lot more money on lights that I want, but I don't have the money to do that. So I make it work.
Chris Miller: This question of adding value is something that I've been thinking about because I saw somebody and they were talking about, when you're promoting anything, I was looking at a podcast. They said, you don't just want to post every day about, oh, hey, here's my podcast, here's my podcast, here's my podcast. Versus imagine that. Versus the person who has a podcast. But every day they're posting something that could add value rather than just a promo. You know what I mean? You're more likely to keep up with the podcast or the individual who continues to give you value rather than tell you, hey, go to Spotify for this. So the question is, uh, okay, well, then how do I add value? Or how do I give value to the audience? And it goes back to that thing.
Paul Harwerth: Where, what are you doing?
Chris Miller: Yeah. And you said that you're being critical on yourself, but you're saying, I don't know how to make a video worth watching. And I will feel similar about conversations.
Paul Harwerth: Sure.
Chris Miller: How do I have conversations and host them? M on a website that people can listen to that are worth listening to compared to the thousands of conversations that are being posted every single day.
Paul Harwerth: Right. It's hard. It's hard because I'm still in that environment. I think it all comes back to I love the enneagram. Um, and so I'll listen to enneagram podcasts because I like them. I like to learn about my type and other people's type. So I can empathize better because I don't always empathize very good with other types. But I really enjoy how that adds value to my life. Right. So I listen, I learn. But I can only do so much of that before I'm bored and I want to go to something else. I want something entertaining. I want something fun I really look at. So it's a really odd example of this, but I think it's a really solid example.
Chris Miller: Yeah.
Paul Harwerth: Do you know who Elise Myers is?
Chris Miller: Tell me about her. Okay.
Paul Harwerth: She is a girl out of Omaha, married, has a daughter, pregnant with her second right now, social media influencer. I would call her a lifestyle influencer, but that gives you the wrong impression. What she does is she basically makes she tells stories in a way that's authentic and that sounds really basic, but essentially she makes light of how you feel in environments that she is also experiencing. So she's taking you into an experience, and, uh, she has social anxiety. So she'll go into these social situations and tell these stories about being in these situations that you as an audience member relate to. Right. It makes you feel less alone. So the value that she adds, uh, is community as relatability relatability. I've been there, I've done that. Or I haven't been there, but if I was in that situation, I would pass away.
Chris Miller: Right.
Paul Harwerth: It's like the worst. Like, how what the heck? She tells she's so good at communication. I got to sit by her at a concert, uh, back in, uh, December. But we had the best conversation, and I was like, So, this isn't just you now. This is you all always she's so relatable, though. We were sitting in this and this massive auditorium, and I'm looking around, and I'm saying, you know what's crazy? We think as social media influencers, uh, 11,000 people saw this. It's trash numbers. There's 11,000 people in this room right now. It's insane. How many bodies? That is insane. I have to put perspective on numbers because it's easy to get lost in the millions and in the trillions of what people are getting and be like, no, that's so many people. Calm down. That's great. Relax.
Chris Miller: Right?
Paul Harwerth: Um, 1000 people liked your post. Calm down. That's insane. Whereas Elise, we were sitting there, and we're chatting, chatting, chat, chat, and people keep coming up and trying to get pictures. We're in the back row of the section, so people can easily access us, like, from the aisle. I turn around, I'm looking around, blah, blah, blah, chatta Kathy. And she's like, uh, that's scary. And I was like, you should look. It's insane. She's like, I can't look. I said why? She's like, if I look, I'll make eye contact. And then someone else will walk up, and I'm just tired. And in that moment, someone walks up, and I'm like, she touched her, has enthusiasm. She's great. She's so good with people and just making them feel seen, and not in a way that's like aloofness or it's just genuine heartfelt. She loves. They come up and are comfortable enough to come say hi, but it is exhausting. Luke was sitting, so it's like, Elise, me, Luke, and some other people. And then her friend was on the other side of her, but Luke would just jump out of his chair to take pictures for because why not? That's what we do. That's literally what we do. So, uh, he would just pop out and pop in, pop out, pop in.
Chris Miller: He's getting the leg work.
Paul Harwerth: Oh, yeah, I know. All night long. Um, anytime there was a break in the concert, it was like that. But I just was really impressed with how she handled those real life interactions. Just like she handles things online. She's so raw, but she adds value in the sense of that relatability. And although I could attempt to add that I don't communicate like that, and I can't replicate that, but I also shouldn't try to replicate it.
Chris Miller: Right.
Paul Harwerth: In marketing. When I worked at this marketing firm, uh, as a creator, my boss, who was very good at her job, she said, Copy with excellence, but make it your own. And the thing about that, the freedom in that, is that I'm a really good copycat. Like, my first big video back in the early days of YouTube was this copycat of a Tessa Violet clone video where she cloned herself three times. So what we did is, instead of because there's two of us, instead of doing three clones, we did five and replicated that video.
Chris Miller: Yeah. You had a model and you made it your own.
Paul Harwerth: Yeah, I made it my own. Right. That video she likes, she commented on it back then, YouTube would put that in your sub and everyone that follows you sub box. And that was it. Like, it was huge for us, right?
Chris Miller: You blow up.
Paul Harwerth: You blow up. So we had some great traction. Blah, blah, blah. It was great. But I can't replicate that, and I can't make that same concept over and over again. I spent 120 hours cloning out every frame, which is three work weeks which is three work weeks of, uh, work for a 1 minute video, which, in hindsight now, if I did it, I could do it a lot easier by filming your subjects farther apart so that they're not constantly overlapping. That was the hard part, is every frame you have to move to, um, match the shoulder.
Chris Miller: You got to go frame by frame.
Paul Harwerth: And then move one frame at a time. Yeah. It was insane. And it still doesn't look that great. Like, I look back at it now, and I'm like, oh, I could have just used green screens, and that would have been good. Easy peasy. Hindsight is 2020.
Chris Miller: Yeah. Your critical hindsight.
Paul Harwerth: Yeah.
Chris Miller: Hearing you talk to me about how she was so relatable just makes me think she's naturally good at that. And it's something she excels at. And in my mind, I'm thinking, I'm answering my own question here. How do I add value? How do you add value? How do you create videos worth creating? And it's finding that thing you're incredibly good ah. At, and then capturing it. Capturing it.
Paul Harwerth: Yeah. I think that there is luke and I are, uh I don't want to just loop us together. We're individuals, but we are sold as a unit, which is fine. That's why somebody got so mad with the twins that they're like they're individuals. Yes. But we don't package ourselves as individuals, which is a problem, and it should be probably remedied, but there is something to be said that is the gimmick part of the gimmick. And we are fairly magnetic personalities. And I'm not trying really hard not to be, like, egotistical here and trying to toot my own horn, because I.
Chris Miller: Would say that that is an understatement. But I get to do that.
Paul Harwerth: And, uh, I'm trying to figure out, okay, well, what is bad that is magnetic? I have incredible shame. I am so ashamed of myself all the time. That is, like, literally, the baseline is shame. I don't think I'm good enough. My brothers were always cooler than I am. Um, I'm not cool. I'm literally quirky and weird. I like all the weirdest things. I am a dancer on the Internet, and I like, not like a sexy dancer, but like a physically a dancer on the internet. Mhm. I like musical theater. I want to go be in a show. I'm going to be in a show this summer. All of these are cool things, but they are weird. I am not the standard for cool. Therefore, I am ashamed of who I am. In college, I wanted to be like my brothers. We went to a college that our brothers literally had just left. My brother Stephen graduated the year before we arrived, and my brother Nate had graduated the year prior to that. So boom, boom, boom. Harworth in the house. Paul, Luke, show up. All of Steven's friends initially befriend us. So I'm trying desperately to be like Stephen. I want to be just like him. I want to be cool like him. He was like the bros bro. He would laugh now, but he was cool. I don't think he ever thought he was cool, but he was cool. He was the idealized version of cool for me. I wanted to be so much like him that they told us to stay, steer clear, the theater department. So we did until they were desperate enough to have corpses on stage. And they needed dancers to do that so that you could assist in the movement, so that they could carry people on stage. So then we were in the show. And that's when I fell in love with theater. But it was that journey, that freshman year of trying to be Steven, hating myself the entire time because I wasn't good enough, I wasn't cool enough. And nobody bullied, per se, but it was like, not great. It wasn't authentic, it wasn't real. And so now trying to figure out, okay, this is who I am, I say I'm not ashamed of who that is. I still am. And I'm working really hard at accepting myself, uh, of saying, you are enough as you are now, right now. Yeah, you're not perfect. Yeah, you're working on that. You are striving for better. But these things that you're interested in, these things that you are, are not bad. They're fine. And there are people out there that also feel that way. So it's okay. You don't have to be Steven. Mhm. He's him.
Chris Miller: We don't need two of him.
Paul Harwerth: No, I don't need two Chris's. You don't even need two Luke's. Believe it or not, I try sometimes to be like that, but the uniquenesses about Luke and I are, uh, what is beautiful within a packaged deal. Luke has a master's in business. He is so good at that stuff. I am absolutely not. I don't want to look at the finances. I do not want to look at the finances, but I need to I need to be aware of that before I spend money, and I need to creatively create within the budget. I need to work. I need somebody like Luke to back me up and help me out in those environments. And Luke needs me to push him creatively. I need Luke to push him creatively, too, honestly. But that's beside the point. When branding, you have to kind of take yourself and say, okay, here is what is. Here is what is that's all I got? Okay? Is that good enough? And the answer we tell ourselves is if we know what we're talking about is, yes, that's enough. Okay. That's base what I end up doing is I end up saying, no, only this is good enough. Only over here, right? This is it. That's all that's good. Over here is not. This is the bad stuff. This is what people will say about you. And then people do say that about you, and that hurts. Hurts so deeply. But it's okay.
Chris Miller: Mhm.
Paul Harwerth: I talk fast. I slur my words. I am not articulate. Probably not the best storyteller. Who cares? I am enough. Even if I'm not enough for that person, right?
Chris Miller: Yeah.
Paul Harwerth: Jesus still loves me. So that's my baseline. I still have Luke. I still have my family. I still have my friends. Mhm. In real life, people like who I am. I don't have to hide that from the Internet. Right?
Chris Miller: How do you do whenever you get a comment on there that's like, on a video and you're like, what in the world?
Paul Harwerth: Sometimes it's easy to ignore. Some of them are easy to ignore. Um, I don't want to say that you do grow tough skin the more it happens. I think I'm glad I didn't blow up when I was younger than I am now. I think I have a much better sense of self now than I did then. But there are times like, there was a I shouldn't talk about this. It would give it power.
Chris Miller: Right? Exactly.
Paul Harwerth: Got to be careful. But there was a comment that was said that hurt. It said what I felt, which confirmed my insecurity. And then we made another video, and it happened again.
Chris Miller: Interesting.
Paul Harwerth: It wasn't the same person.
Chris Miller: Okay.
Paul Harwerth: Not as interesting, but it happened again. And it was like, uh, is it true? And I told Luke this. I said, Luke, stop. Take that with a grain of salt. Everything can be taken with a grain of salt. Right. Say, okay, this is a good point. We talked too fast. Yes. We put captions. We did everything we could to revive what was there. Sometimes you can't worry about it too much. You just got to get it out. Post it. Post it, post it. You can't worry about it.
Chris Miller: Post and ghost.
Paul Harwerth: Post and ghost. And that one didn't do great. Two in a row didn't do great. Luke said we shouldn't do this kind of content anymore. I said, no, that is not what we're saying. That is you telling yourself you're not good enough, because these commenters said you weren't. It doesn't matter what they think. It doesn't matter. Literally, the core audience, the people that you need to see those things are seeing them and they're not saying anything because that's fine.
Chris Miller: Mhm.
Paul Harwerth: Yeah. It wasn't their favorite video in the world. It wasn't the dancing video they wanted. But does it matter? Is it something else from you that you can give? Yeah, that's important. That's something else and you don't know. That could have gone viral. Are we happy it didn't? Yes, because the comments would have been brutal because we did talk too fast. But I'm not thinking I hear me, I hear Paul. I am an incredibly fast talker. If we're listening to this back, and I'm not that articulate. I don't speak well. But did Moses speak well in the Bible? He didn't. And God said go anyway.
Chris Miller: He was still incredibly monumental.
Paul Harwerth: Incredibly monumental. He's like the father of Israel. Yeah. I can be used regardless of how I feel about my voice, about what I say. And can I add a little bit of joy into the world to my dancing? Yes. Because that's what I'm good at. That's what I'm great at. Uh, so do that now. Add value as you go. It's a journey. I don't know what I want. I still don't know what I want. But do I want to bring joy into the world? Do I want to help people create? Do I want to help businesses learn how to work with influencers? Yes. Because they desperately need some help. Do not approach people the way that you approach people. It's fine, but don't do it. It doesn't work. You would get so much more value. That's a tangent. I'm so sorry. I am watching myself do these little.
Chris Miller: No, this is good.
Paul Harwerth: But businesses need to if they approached people differently, they could capitalize on their budgets so much more.
Chris Miller: So people aren't getting the messages you're getting. So, like, explain the standard.
Paul Harwerth: I'm so sorry. So right now, what happens a lot of times is you get approached by a brand or a company and say, we want to make this you say, Great, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, here's my rates. They say, no, that's too much. Or yes, that works. Um, a lot of times you're talking to an agency. So the company say Coca Cola, not mhm to name drop a Coca Cola, but Coca Cola. They hire an agency, let's say Maverick. I don't know who they actually work with, but that's an agency. They're the middleman. They are given a budget and they say, we need X amount of ads. Or they may say that we need this many eyeballs on this go within these demographics, within this campaign that they have slated. So usually it's like, I mean, let's just make it easy. It's like millions of dollars, but say $1,000, right? Just to make it easy, $1,000. So now you have we need 1000 videos for a $1,000. That's not obviously going to ever happen, but we're just making it a dollar. Yeah, a dollar video.
Chris Miller: Yeah.
Paul Harwerth: So you have a dollar video. So I need to find influencers. Well, hey, this influencer has a million followers or 2 million followers, and they're going to cost $10. Huh? Well, that's a hefty bunch of your budget. But you want them because you need those eyeballs and they have a good substantial following and their analytics are good. Fine, we'll do ten there. Then we're going to do kind of less here, more here. But we need 1000 videos still. So you're going to ask some people for some freebies because we'll send them product and we'll do this. It's negotiations, it's all that. But then they're trying to get 1000 videos back to coke within the timeline, right? So you're working with an agent that is on their team at the agency and you're communicating back and forth. Now, I don't have this completely figured out as far as how to help them streamline that because there isn't a way to do that. That is just part of corporate culture. It takes time. But I do think there is value in approaching creators with the Pringles has done a good job with this. Uh, but approaching creators and saying, I need you to create what you're good at for this product. Because right now what happens is a lot of times is they have these campaigns and they're very specific and they're stringent on like, we need this, this and this, and we need to have ad here, and we need to have this here. But then it just looks like an ad. So people scroll right away. Whereas this girl, um, I can't remember her name off the top of my head now. She's so who? Becca? Oh, she's so good. She's so funny. I don't know her full at handle right now off the top of my head, but she's so funny. She did this brand deal with Pringles and I thought it fit so streamlined into her normal content stream that by the end of it, basically what happens is she's a mom. She's doing this bit where she's a mom and the kids just left the house and she was she went and found the Pringles. And so she put her hands in the Pringles jar, but then she can't get them out because she's trying to get the Pringles out. So she ends up cleaning the whole house with a Pringles thing on her hand. And it's hilarious. And she's basically just making a joke. I mean, it's a skit, right? It's funny because the Pringles can, we've all had our finger, our hands almost stuck in a Pringles jar to get the bottom chips, right? And mom, especially when the kids leave, she's going for it, right? But it wasn't until the very end I realized, oh, that Pringles can is perfectly placed every frame to have that branding at the camera. So then I was like, oh wait. So then I. Scroll down and I see, oh, it is an ad. But I didn't know that until the end of the ad.
Chris Miller: And that's the mark of a good.
Paul Harwerth: That'S the markup of a really good ad. Now, I know we're talking about ads and most people don't want to see ads, so they think they're selling out and stuff. But that's literally how I make my money. So sorry if you think I would sell out, I am literally here. Yeah, I got to get my Pringles. But that was so good that I didn't even think about it. So when I'm approached by a company and they say, hey, we need this, this and this, and you're like, okay, that's great. How about this is our kind of our idea? And they're like, no, we need it to look like this. You're like, okay, that is not going to perform well. And they don't listen. They're like, we don't care. This is what they want. So then we do it and we send it to them and we get approvals and you go through edits and blah, blah, blah. Then you post it and it doesn't do well. I knew it wasn't going to do well when I made it and I'm not really proud of that, but I'm going to put it on my account because you're paying me money. That's not really a good strategy.
Chris Miller: Right?
Paul Harwerth: Creators know our audiences. We know what is going to perform well. I know that those Vlogs we made the other two days for Instagram aren't going to perform well because it's not our normal content. The challenging part is, how do I incorporate dance into an ad that makes sense? Mhm and so what we normally do is we work really hard at, um, delivering concepts that do fit within the normal content flow, but then we're also constantly trying to adjust our content flow to better fit with advertisers ideas. Right? So it's this battle where you're like, okay, if I can get more vlogs me talking more. You have to talk in almost every ad that you do because they need more information than just what's in the description. So it is a challenge, but listening is so much more important. The challenge with listening is it takes time. And most people don't have time, which is fair. I worked on that side. I worked on the other side of it. We didn't have time. We were like, we are on a timeline.
Chris Miller: We are going, we need a thousand.
Paul Harwerth: Videos, talk them, and I need to prove a thousand videos. Mhm so I need you as an agency to know exactly what I want. And I need you to just lay on these influencers. That's what I want because I don't have time to listen. And then when you look at the videos and you're like, that doesn't even advertise for us. Why are we paying for that? When in reality that Pringles can may not have looked like an ad, but it performed incredibly, which got more people eyes on your product, which is what you want on a TV ad. Some of my friends, they're like, yeah, they won't pay us. I can't get them to pay us a decent budget. I'm like, why? You literally have numbers. Like, when you post an ad, you're getting numbers. Like, the Super Bowl gets numbers. It's like, yeah, but they want ROI. We're not getting ROI. I said, do Super Bowl commercials. Get ROI. No, they don't. Uh, so explain. I need to explain to them. Be like, listen, we got to drop the expectation for ROI. Link clicks aren't advertising. You're paying for an ad, like a visual ad. And I need you to understand that an eyeball on that ad is literally just as valuable as a click on that ad. Because just like, you can't standardize how an ROI on a TV ad does, you can on a video like ours. So you do, and then it looks bad, and so you'd never hire me again. That's fine.
Chris Miller: Yeah. Knowledge of the brand is the goal. And I was listening to a, uh, podcast with the marketing guy, and he said the best commercials where people actually memorize the songs, typically result in less compared to the gimmicky annoying commercials. So it's like, you don't want to be known for a gimmicky annoying commercial. Just like you don't want to be known for a bad video.
Paul Harwerth: Right? If that goes viral, jeez the, uh, slander that you get for that. But also, I think about people who have done really good jobs. People like Purple, uh, Mattresses did a brand campaign where they had goldilocks. And that was their very first kind of it was when I first bought my purple mattress. When they did this, it got you it got me real good. But it was because they shifted from there. I think the same company that did, like, um, Squatty Potty when they like that same marketing company, but they literally take marketing from left field and they say, let's just make it funny. Who cares? The more memorable we are, if we take ourselves less seriously, then people will actually take us seriously. Which is what I did. I said, oh, that's different enough to make me think about your your brand. And I saw it enough, and I shared do you know how many times I shared that ad with people I knew? That purple ad, I couldn't get over it. Pooperi. Same company, but the same company that produced that ad. But I was like, this is so funny. I can't believe someone actually made this an ad. Like a professional ad that runs on TV. Have you seen that one?
Chris Miller: I, um, haven't.
Paul Harwerth: And she's like an English girl sitting on the toilet. It's so funny. I'll have.
Chris Miller: She puts the drops in there because it's stinky.
Paul Harwerth: Yeah. Have you ever used pooperi? Yeah, it's so good. But it's a good product too. It's not even just crappy product. It's like a good product.
Chris Miller: It's a brilliant product. And I love the person who found that in the market. One of the questions I'm curious of, do you recall the first brand deal that you were approached with that you were like, yes.
Paul Harwerth: Oh, that. I was like, yes. Yeah. Harry Potter. They did we did a thing with Warner Bros. For Harry, uh, Potter and the Secrets of Dumbledore. Last year was last year. And we, uh, went all out and Warner Brothers loved it, which is cool. We still haven't seen any further repercussions of that. They want to work with us again, but we haven't seen any of that come back, which is sad, but it does happen when you're working with agencies. A lot of times they aren't even the ones. Like, it's just strategy and stuff for them. But we did this Secrets of Dumbledore thing and it was so much fun and they let us kind of just have at it and do it. The biggest challenge with Warner Brothers is that they misunderstand. This is another thing that freaking executives don't understand copyright. They don't understand how ad has to be placed in your stuff. All you have to do, all we as creators have to do based on the FDC's FDC whatever the federal FCC the FCC's guidelines are that you have to disclose the partnership. Meaning, if it's a paid ad, all we have to do is toggle that thing that says paid advertisement at the top. You do not have to put a large ad in the top corner. You don't have to say, this video is sponsored by Warner Bros. You do not have to do any of that to disclose that information. That's disclosed right there.
Chris Miller: And mhm.
Paul Harwerth: You tag warner brothers. Disclosure. But executives don't understand that. And they may have legal people that are, like, overly sensitive. Which is fine because again, I'm only working at it from my perspective of when I look at the FCC's guidelines and I say what is required of me as a creator to be within the corporate guidelines? And literally, if somebody gifts you something, all you have to say, hashtag gifted. That's like, literally you have to disclose the payment, right? So if it's not, then sometimes people are like, no, you have to turn on that paid partnership label. I was like, yeah, but you didn't pay me anything. You paid me in product, which I don't even say yes to anymore because it doesn't pay my bills, mhm, unless I really want the product. But then make a little there's exceptions. Every rule has exceptions. Mhm. Warner brothers was a huge one for us. That was like, our first big one. That was like, high paying and they treated us like authentic creators. It wasn't like kind of another one. Another one that was actually really fun. That wasn't as well paid, but it was very fun. Was this ongoing? We did like a three. It was a multiple part brand deal that wasn't paid at first. So the first couple of videos, although gifted, were not paid for until the end. Therefore, we didn't have a contract with them for payment. I don't know how this legally works. We, uh, did have to say it was paid, the last video in that stream. But they did send us a bunch of stuff. And so we started opening as if we bought the stuff. We did disclose at the end they were gifted, but it was like, unboxing on YouTube. But it was like this, uh, death hook. I love them. I love their stuff. This is a hook. This is hook. This is hook. The hooks on the wall.
Chris Miller: Here's another hook. Ad.
Paul Harwerth: Yeah, hook. They were just getting ready to do this really great campaign. I can't wait. We're helping out, but for free. We just love them. They're just our friends. That's the problem in this market sometimes with the smaller companies. I love working with small companies. But they can't pay you. That's fair. I'm a small company, and I can't pay anybody to help me help film things. And I need help. And I'm like, I just need to pay somebody. But I can't I don't have any budget. Uh, I understand. So we just help them out whenever we can. But, like, even them and then packed bags. Those are the two. So Hook and Pact are the two small companies that I adore. We're doing some, uh, pact has treated us very well with work, so we were on a retainer with them. It was a low retainer, but we were on a retainer with them for, uh, several months. And then they said, hey, budget wise, we can't. Great. Cool.
Chris Miller: Yeah.
Paul Harwerth: So then, um, just recently they reached out and said, hey, could you do some, UGC, some user generated content? And we said, sure. Yeah. What's your budget for that? And so they told us, and it was low, but it was like, hey, that's awesome. Yeah, we'll help you out. She's like, hey, and I got to send you a bag for that. Do you want two bags? One for each of you? I said, yeah, sure. Yeah. We just got them today. We unboxed them today. And I love them. I've been wanting it for a long time. But pull the trigger on it. So some of that stuff kind of works out. Yeah. It's not a high paying gig. And it's always balance. It's hard to balance when you're not making money because you're desperate and you.
Chris Miller: Want to make money.
Paul Harwerth: You want to make money. There's other timing. You need to make money. And then the challenge then, too, is then how low do you go? How do you balance it? Because you need to be valuable. You can't just give it away. If you give it away, then you're no longer valuable.
Chris Miller: There's no value, right?
Paul Harwerth: So then it's like, well, then, uh but then you have people that you want to promote and desire to promote. So how do you balance that, too?
Chris Miller: So what's the optimal state for content creator? Do you think that does somebody want to be on retainer for a whole bunch of different companies and being paid by tons of people versus one big deal? One big deal. One big deal. I guess both, right?
Paul Harwerth: Both a little bit. I think for us, I love partnering long term with someone. Okay. Um, but I don't think it's valuable for them. I don't think it's bad. I just don't think it's necessarily valuable. And here's what I mean. Pact was incredible. We were doing three videos a month for them. It's a lot on your social platforms. It's like TV, right? So, like, every five videos, you have an ad, right? It's the goal. But we were basically of our ad space. Uh, the majority of it was packed, which people just learned that that was part of your content. So that works really well. And then when they were like, hey, what bag were you wearing? That was from Packed? Where can I find that? It's like, oh, I've got a link in my link tree. Go check it out. I get a little kickback too, if you buy it. Uh, with Pact, we actually turned that off. I was like, hey, use that budget toward our retainer. And then you guys keep the profits instead of doing an affiliate, because we were trying to do an affiliate with them, and it just kind of didn't really work that well. So it was kind of like, let's do this. Streamline it that way, you guys know, and then that way you get the profits. Um, affiliates just don't work for me. It's a lot of work for very little return, unless you're doing massive amounts of sales. And the only way to do that is with smaller items. Sometimes they're like bags and some of those types of things. It's harder to get decent sales. Um, whereas so, like, what you were saying about, like, bigger deals, sometimes it's nice to have, like, a big deal, like, quarterly. The goal, really, is that you book basically, like, let's say four large jobs that cover your yearly payroll. Nice. That would be the goal if we were huge. That's the goal.
Chris Miller: That pays the bills.
Paul Harwerth: That pays the bills. You have maintenance, you have payroll covered. You don't have any extra. But it's like those four jobs pay for your yearly budget, and then you take on the smaller jobs to pay for your travel and some of the fun vo and gear. Some of that type of stuff isn't covered in that initial budget. So it's kind of like a thermometer budget. Like, you have the circle at the bottom that you need to hit, and then everything above that is like, oh, now we have money for gear and now we have money for travel. Now we have money for vacation.
Chris Miller: That makes sense.
Paul Harwerth: Um, we do not have that set up, in a way. And we're not managed either. So it's much harder to do it. It's so hard.
Chris Miller: There's a goal to be managed because that opens.
Paul Harwerth: See, I don't know. I would like to be managed, but it also takes a lot of your control away. Um, so if I was to be managed, what I would do, um, we're actually meeting with a manager to chat soon, um, and hopefully that will be a good situation. I don't know, um, that I would do a three month, uh, contract. Three, uh, month contract saying, hey, for three months, we'll do it, and if it's working, we'll continue, but if not, I won't. And the reason you do that is you've got to test managers. We've heard a lot of horror stories about people like signing managers, like long years long contracts. And they basically have control of your email. Not like your business email that says if you have an inquiry, it comes here.
Chris Miller: Wow, you don't have access to that inbound everything.
Paul Harwerth: Embedded opportunities inbound is going to that email address. And if they email you personally, directly, you have to then forward it legally or you're breaching your contract. They have to manage everything, which can be very good or very bad. This one girl, she was talking about online and she was like, yeah, I signed this contract. And for months I didn't hear, I said, hey, uh, I know things are just like, getting started. It's hard, but what's going on? Uh, do we have any work? She was doing consistent work up to this point. No, nothing's coming yet. We'll let you know. And she's like, I think I did one brand deal with them under that management for three months. And she said then I said, no, this isn't working.
Chris Miller: So to her, that's a lot of lost time.
Paul Harwerth: Huge. Yeah. So that's why for us, if you do a three month contract, it's still scary. It's still three months of work that you may lose or you may gain a bunch of work. So it's like, who knows? Who knows? Um, and so management, I think sometimes they take on a ton of people and then they just kind of fluff you, mhm? And they get those contracts and then they get cuttings of whatever they sell. So if they've got a couple of bigger people on their rosters, those people are making them money. They don't need the smaller people to do it.
Chris Miller: Mhm.
Paul Harwerth: I don't know. It's just so challenging. It's so hard to know because then it's like, well, but if you do it yourself, then you're literally emailing. Like Luke is emailing people literally all the time, getting ghosted. So it's hard to sell yourself if you're not an external party saying, no, they are valuable, right? You are important. This is a good choice for you.
Chris Miller: So, not having a manager, you get to speak for yourself. You get to, um, advocate for yourself, which could result in more business. But if you get a great manager, it could even be even better result in more business.
Paul Harwerth: Because it may not be more business. It may just be higher paying business.
Chris Miller: Right.
Paul Harwerth: Because they can pitch you at a higher rate. Whereas for us, sometimes we are worth this much. And they're like, yeah, but are you? Yeah, I come from ten years of marketing experience. Ten plus years. Uh, yes. Uh I know what I'm doing. I may not have the numbers to back it up like these other larger creators, but I will at least give you a product you're proud of.
Chris Miller: Right?
Paul Harwerth: Like, I know how to help you listen to me. But also, how do you know that I'm not just Bsing my way through it? They don't. They get through all the podcast.
Chris Miller: Yeah, just have them listen to the podcast.
Paul Harwerth: There you go. Then you're like, I know what I'm talking about.
Chris Miller: Yeah. Go to the 45 minutes mark. One question, and I have questions, but you'll have to have a red light for whenever we should wrap up. But one question is, how do you find your audience? Um, because creating content, I am kind of dealing with this, and I know it's different because with TikTok, it was random. There's an algorithm, and you kind of create into that, and it exposes, and there's discoverability and all this jazz. But I would imagine now you all have an audience, like a niche that loves your stuff. So it's like, how do you find all that?
Paul Harwerth: Um, ours was accidental, so yes and no. I think for me, it was and I don't want to say this is literally just for me, I had to stop thinking about what audience it was, okay.
Chris Miller: And just create the content.
Paul Harwerth: Just create the content. And then it found an audience. That's good. I think you can curate that better than we did, where we are in our struggle. And we were creating marketing materials, basically, to send it's, like, basic stuff that's like, hey, here's our gender split. Here's our age group, age demographic.
Chris Miller: Where are people listening from demographics.
Paul Harwerth: Here's who we've worked with before. Here's, blah, M, blah, blah, blah. Basically, to send to them and say, this is our numbers. Here's where we're at. Here's the demographics, blah, blah, blah. So do you want to work with us or not? When we were talking to this costume, uh, errors manager, he's like, can you look at your analytics right now? Tell me what they are, and then let's look over the last six months, because you can set those parameters. And we did. It was really interesting. We're almost between Instagram and TikTok together altogether. We are almost a 50 split gender wise interesting, which is bonkers. That never happens.
Chris Miller: Right.
Paul Harwerth: It's very rare.
Chris Miller: Very rare.
Paul Harwerth: But it also makes it really hard for advertisers to know what to do with you. Very few products are advertised to both genders. It's not generally just, mhm, I need this to go to women, I need this to go to men.
Chris Miller: Right.
Paul Harwerth: So how do you market yourself to advertisers if you're split down the middle? Um, our age demographic is over 24, but predominantly like 20. What is it? Uh, 24 to 35 is predominant, which for dancing content is a shock to us. We thought it would be kids. Kids and teens or young adults. But it's predominantly that 30 ish our age. Right. My age. Mhm which is bizarre to me, especially because we try to be family friendly, which again, some of those demographics are wrong because of kids using parents accounts, some of that stuff. So if kids are watching, which I know there are some, uh, within our personal circles, it's not on their accounts. They don't have accounts. So it's hard to like.
Chris Miller: But the audience has surprised you, is what I hear you say.
Paul Harwerth: Yeah. So it's not always the people you expect to reach that you will reach. And that is, I think, due heavily to the algorithms mhm, that type of stuff. But I wouldn't worry about what your audience is. I would worry about what you bring to the table. It's easy to think out externally a lot, to a point where you're just thinking about like, who am I talking to?
Chris Miller: Mhm?
Paul Harwerth: And that's important. You don't ignore that. But you also have to understand that you bringing you to this creative endeavor is way more important than worrying about who's going to see it. Because if you're just worrying about who's going to see it, it's like me in college when I was a freshman. I'm worried that they're not seeing Steven anymore, and I have to be Steven now. Come on, that doesn't work. Uh, it's exhausting and it sucks.
Chris Miller: It's a great parallel.
Paul Harwerth: Yeah. Mhm, so it's that little freshman in college going to school and trying to be somebody else, when in reality, there's no getting away from who you are. So you might as well bring that to the table. And the people that watch or listen or interact with your content, it's going to be the people that are going to connect with you.
Chris Miller: Yeah, this is good for me because I get to that question of, uh, they say add value. So then you're like, okay, well, let me add value. But then you're like, well, what is my audience value?
Paul Harwerth: Yeah.
Chris Miller: And then you go in this loop of like, well then I need to figure out who my audience is. Okay, well then how do I build towards a certain audience? When really the answer is whatever you're really good at. Capture that, broadcast it, or put it on whatever platform you can. And I got one question for you. And then we're just going to go toward this kind of, like, final message. If we didn't hit something that you think we should have hit, boom.
Paul Harwerth: Cool.
Chris Miller: But what if the thing you're really good at, you mentioned at the beginning of the year, they were more focused, TikTok was more interested in storytelling. Mhm right.
Paul Harwerth: It seemed to be I don't know.
Chris Miller: If it yeah, who knows?
Paul Harwerth: That was the it may have just hated us.
Chris Miller: Yeah. It's like you weren't doing well, so you're like, oh, here's why.
Paul Harwerth: You know what I'm saying?
Chris Miller: So what if the thing you're really good at, uh, the thing you had value at, uh, like, the platforms just aren't loving.
Paul Harwerth: I think you got to find another platform. I don't think there's ever one platform with the TikTok ban happening right now. All this stuff that's, like, on the horizon or could happen or couldn't happen, whatever. For me, yes, TikTok was a place I found for once, it's success. It happened for me, and it does affect me, and I hate that if it happens, it really does diminish free speech in a way that I don't think is good. I don't like that overreach of the government, and I don't think that it's important. Uh, is it their responsibility to keep our data safe? Yes. So there's two sides of that coin, and both sides are right. It's hard. It's hard to be in that environment where I'm like, yes, I don't want the government overreaching, but I do want to be safe. I don't want China, like, digging in our stuff. But also they're probably already doing it. Facebook's already selling to them. Uh, I don't have the answers to that. And if TikTok goes away tomorrow, I'll continue to create an Instagram and I'll find other platforms that connect with people where I can dance. YouTube is not a good place to dance because copyright is just horrible on YouTube. But it's a place that I can dance. Mhm, so I will. I need to make tutorials for for dances on there. I need to add value in that way. If someone wants to learn a trendy TikTok dance, why am I not the first one out there breaking it down, figuring it out, teaching it on there?
Chris Miller: Put that on your list of things you need to do.
Paul Harwerth: It's on my list. It's a long list, but, uh, yes, that's on the list of, like, how to add value on YouTube. One that works right within my niche. But is it entertaining for me to watch? Not really. I love watching documentaries and stuff on YouTube, but do I want to make those? Absolutely not. Do you know how much work that is? I have made them before on mhm, the back end. Like, as an editor, I do not want to make that for myself. Do I enjoy watching them? Yeah, I can enjoy watching them, but that's not the content I want to make so can I add value within this environment? Yes. How? There's a lot of ways. Open your eyes. I love what we said at the beginning, and it may have been when we were not rolling yet, but we, uh, talked about Curse out when we were in curse. I don't know, maybe that was when we were rolling. But open your eyes. Perspective is everything. The blue water is there. Yeah, you're stressed out about work. Yeah. You're stressed out about the work you need to do right now. But if you open your eyes, if you breathe into that center and you say, wait a second, where am I right now? This is beautiful. Mhm, I can be stressed out. That's okay. But perspective is everything. And right now, in this environment where I'm doing this full time, it may not last very long, but I'm doing it full time right now. Breathing to that. Enjoy the moments. Enjoy this opportunity to live and to create in this environment. Take your time in that and enjoy what God has given us right now.
Chris Miller: Yeah, I get nervous about that, thinking, oh, uh, man, will I look back. And the moments where things were happening. I was stressed the whole time.
Paul Harwerth: I know.
Chris Miller: Yeah. I get nervous and scared about that. So it's a good message. All right, final question. We got someone who's thinking about creating something and they got a lot of fear, but I think I'm going to do it. What is the advice for all those individuals? And not to make it seem like a can generic question, but really, I think that's one of the most valuable things of this whole podcast is your whole experience. And you get to bring to the table something nobody else gets to bring. Even you and Luke have done some of the things, but you get to bring different things to the table.
Paul Harwerth: Exactly.
Chris Miller: So that being said, what's the message you're trying to get to them?
Paul Harwerth: Uh, so cheesy. But do it. Just do it. I was talking to a guy in the airport yesterday that said he took a class in college about video editing and he just gave up and started editing photos instead. And I said, yeah, it's hard, but if you just do it over and over again, make tons of mistakes, and you will take the time. Those programs work. They work well. Cap Cut is your best friend. If you want to make videos, it's great. It works really well.
Chris Miller: Mhm.
Paul Harwerth: And on mobile platforms, that is a far stretch. Like, we do not have data like that, not when I started. But if you just play, let yourself play. Breathe into that uncomfort of, I don't know what I'm doing. And just do it. Say it's okay. I'm not going to have it perfect and I won't know everything. Google it. Lucas told me the other day, he's like, I don't know how to do this. I said have. You googled it. He's like, no, I was just going to ask you. I was like, that's fair, but Google is your best friend. I literally one time, I'm not an animator at all. And at my job, um, I told her that my boss when she hired me, I said I said, I can do two things really well. I'm a photographer and I'm and I'm a videographer, and I can edit both of those mediums well. I am not a graphic designer. I am not an animator. If you need those, you have to hire them out because it will waste my time.
Chris Miller: Yeah.
Paul Harwerth: She said, okay, great. Day one. She said, I need you and this graphic designer to design this website. I said, did we talked about this? She said, I know. I don't have anybody else to do it though. So you just figured out I said, okay, did it. I think a week or two later, she's like, we need this animated it's entirely animated. Like from scratch. Like from a PDF of words, right? Just like a graph that I had to make into, uh, make it move. Okay. I did tell you that we were going to need to hire that out. She's like, Great, do you have an animator? I said no. She said, okay, well then you'd have to do it. Okay. And I did. I Googled every literal keyframe. How to do this, how to do that, how to do this. It took 40 hours. And she came in and she said, mhm, I just don't like the direction this is going. Let's change it. I said, Great, but I learned a lot.
Chris Miller: You learned a lot.
Paul Harwerth: So do it. It's going to be frustrating and you're going to throw a computer across the room at one point, but it is worth it. If you want it, do it. If you don't want it, you won't do it.
Chris Miller: Mhm.
Paul Harwerth: But I can't encourage you enough to start and start now. Whether you're 80, whether you're four do something to get one step closer, and.
Chris Miller: For all those new creators out there, do it and don't care about the numbers.
Paul Harwerth: Yes.
Chris Miller: Because those are not your best friends.
Paul Harwerth: They are not. And they'll stress you out for no reason.
Chris Miller: Yes, and I am right there. I'm just saying don't care about them. But hey, thanks for your time.
Paul Harwerth: No problem, man. Yeah, appreciate it.
Chris Miller: This was a blast.
Paul Harwerth: This was so fun.
Chris Miller: Keep creating because you're inspiring so many people and I'm one of them.
Paul Harwerth: I appreciate it. Also, I do want to point out that you can ask for help. Yes, I struggle to ask for help. I will Google things for days. But just to reach out and say, hey, I don't know how to do this. I want to be a resource to people that if you have questions to ask, um, how we connected with Austin Emeritus from Costume Aer is that Austin reached out and said, I see that you're using a camera and I want to buy a camera. What do you use?
Chris Miller: Wow.
Paul Harwerth: And I was just like a little schoolgirl because I was idolized them. They were like my idols and, uh, in the dance world. And I was like, oh, yeah, do you want to get on a call? We can cover a lot of data that way. And at first I sent him like, links to things. And I was like, yeah, this is good. This is good if you do this, this and this. And then I got on the phone with him to talk. He got the camera. We met on the phone and I said, all right, I'm going to walk you through how to use this. And Luke told you today, if all us failed intelligent. Intelligent auto. Yes, because that's okay. They spent a lot of money to make those intelligent. But I overwhelmed him with data. And we met them in real life for this concert that we saw set by Elise Myers at Full Circle moment. And we saw them, we got coffee for like 3 hours. And then we went and danced. And it was so much fun. But when we met up for the very first time, the first thing I said to him was like, I am so sorry. I'm so sorry I overwhelmed you on that first day. Are you using the camera still? He's like, yes, it's in auto. I think that's okay.
Chris Miller: We may be rocking an auto, but rocking the auto.
Paul Harwerth: Hey, uh, no worries. One challenge. If you want to use a camera on manual, go into a garage with a light, a singular light, and play around with your ISO, your aperture and your shutter speed. And just see what happens to those images. And move the camera a little bit. That'll tell you your focal lengths will change with your aperture. So, like, how blurry the background is will change with your aperture. Your shutter speed will affect blur and how sharp it is. And your ISO will create graininess the higher it is. But other than that, brightness and darkness. And that's all you're worried about. But they have consequences. That's it. Yeah, easy peasy.
Chris Miller: Like M. Luke said. Intelligent auto. Okay.
Paul Harwerth: Intelligent auto. Yeah.
Chris Miller: Well, folks, we'll see you next time.
Paul Harwerth: See you next time.