#28 - Paige Freeman: Unlocking the Power of Intercultural Communication

You never know what magnitude of impact you can have in a person's life by truly checking in on them.

Hello, welcome to Talk to People, a podcast where I get to sit down with a new and cool person each week to discuss how they got from where they were to where they are now, and how to improve your life with better conversations, relationships, and community.

What you're about to hear is a conversation that I had with Paige Freeman, where we discuss why communication is an intercultural experience and the importance of building a diverse community around you.

We get into the difference between openness and vulnerability.

We give a tip for both extroverts and introverts.

We hear how to get better at public speaking and why you should be talking to strangers.

No matter how you might identify as far as a communicator that everyone's different and that you can have a conversation with anyone, but what that person brings is unique to them.

It shouldn't mirror the things that you say or what you say.

Before we hop into the episode, I do wanna say it looks like the majority of the people who watch this channel are not subscribed.

So if you could subscribe, that would be great.

This is a growing podcast.

As you can see, I'm in my dining room.

So the more, the merrier for this community.

Officially live.

We've been wanting to do this, but welcome to the Dining Room Studio.

You made it.

How's your day going?

Thank you.

Thank you, first and foremost.

We did make it, and I appreciate your patience, but my day is going pretty good for a Monday, actually.

You know how Mondays can be.

You never know what type of Monday you're gonna get, but it was a really good Monday for me.

My first day back in the office from some travel last week, and so I am looking forward to a good productive week.

Yeah, what's your favorite day of the week?

Uh, Friday, of course.

Yeah, Friday, golden Fridays, to be exact.

So Fridays when I get paid.

Oh, yeah.

This upcoming Friday will be a golden Friday.

Yeah, those are good, because some people like Saturdays more than Fridays because you still have to work on Friday.

Yep.

Yeah, but Saturday, you're just kicking it full time.

But I'm not the biggest fan of Saturday because once Saturday starts, you know your weekend's coming to an end.

I know.

Right.

And they go really fast.

And they go fast.

It's all about anticipation.

Anticipation's even better than the real thing.

That's why I think most people love Fridays, is they're like, oh, what am I gonna do this weekend?

TGIF, thank God it's Friday.

Thank God it's Friday.

And sometimes those are chill Fridays.

Sometimes they are go and spend your paycheck, not all of it, but yeah, Fridays are my favorite.

You just got back to work.

What do you do for work?

I just got back to work today.

And so what I do for work is I work in higher education and I actually work on the affiliate side of the University of Kansas, working for the KU Alumni Association.

And so I work in alumni relations.

My formal position title is Director of Student Programs.

And so what I get the privilege of doing is overseeing our student alumni network, which is our student involvement opportunity for current KU students.

And then I get to do some large scale event planning for our student alumni network.

And so a lot of our events that we typically host throughout the year, they're either social or educational events that all tailor to KU tradition for current students.

And then a very new recent thing that has been added to my area is I'm going to be introducing some young alumni initiatives.

And so for those young alum Jayhawks, we're going to be offering some involvement opportunities to get a different population.

And right now, a disengaged population reconnected back to KU.

That's true.

Because oftentimes people think about engaged alumni.

In my head, I think about people who have established jobs and they got a lot of money to give back.

Absolutely.

But a lot of us don't have that.

No, not the young alumni audience.

Some people are leaving college without a job, right?

Still searching for a job or are redefining what their career path is actually gonna look like because they may have gotten a degree that they are no longer interested in or it's not making enough funds to survive.

And so we're gonna kind of switch it up a little and try some more creative and more innovative ways to reach a different audience and make it more affordable and realistic for them to participate and get involved with us.

So hopefully there'll be some really cool things that'll come out.

So if you're listening and you're a young alum that went to KU, be on the lookout, Jayhawks.

I'm just saying.

Are they gonna get an email?

Oh, I'm sure there will be communication, modalities of email, website, social media, but more to come on that note.

Okay, more to come.

I like having teasers on here.

This is like behind the scenes exclusive information.

That's right.

Did you know that you were going to be doing this when you were a little girl?

Like what did you wanna be when you were young?

What was the dream job?

So you know me, Chris, for those that do not know, I am a, I'm a talker.

I was that little girl.

I was that kid that in elementary school when you would get the report card and it would be a needs improvement, my needs improvement all connected back to, you know, you talk too much in class.

So, you know, I guess from that, it kinda, I would say ripple affected, sort of transitioned over into more of like my personal side.

And I just remember, you know, whether it be in school or I was a Boys and Girls Club kid.

And so growing up, me and my sisters, we always visited the Boys and Girls Club after school.

And so I also got told I talked too much in that setting.

But in that setting, I learned a little bit more, you know, how to take my talking too much, if you will, that was a negative in the classroom and turn it into a positive outside.

And so there was actually staff members that was a part of the Boys and Girls Club staff.

And I got involved with leadership programs as a student, started to lead some of those things.

So whether it be our teen room, whether it was camp we were doing, or the arts and craft room, I was a leader.

And so those talking too much skills then transitioned to me being a leader and really learning like, whoa, not only do I think I'm a leader, but others perceive me as a leader.

And I'm actually leading.

And so I share that to give the backstory of, I don't think that I knew that I would be in education or higher education to be specific.

But I knew that I would be doing something that I would be working with people and diverse people, right, like where I grew up from home.

So I'm from Louisville, Kentucky, and the community that I am a product of is a very diverse community.

And so I knew then that wherever I go, whether it was living in Kentucky or living in Kansas, I wanted to be around diverse populations of people.

And so I would say that that kind of continued for me, throughout school, through the clubs that I joined, I was always serving in sort of a leadership role.

Later went on to, in high school, I was a team captain for my basketball team.

I was Miss Ballard for my high school and all of those different leadership and involvement experiences to me, they all connect back to my ability to connect with others.

And you kind of have to be willing to talk to folks and putting yourself out there to be able to lead a group, whether it be me being the team captain or me leading my high school class as Miss Ballard.

So I would say that kind of transitioned throughout my life and was a consistent theme.

And then when I went to college, so I originally, I wanted to go to the University of Kentucky.

Sorry, those, you know.

But you know, fun fact, I'm actually not a UK fan.

I am a UofL fan.

So the University of Louisville, I'm a Louisville fan.

It's a big rival.

But you wanted to go to Kentucky because it was the biggest university or?

Yeah, so I'm the middle child.

And the University of Louisville, I'm from the city, Louisville.

And so I wanted to go somewhere that would be completely different.

So I wanted to get away from home, number one.

So I wanted to leave the city.

And then I had an older sister that we have literally done so much alike throughout my entire life.

Our initials are the same.

There's so much that we've done as the same.

And I don't say that because I hate it because I have grown to love that.

I had someone to teach me the ropes and really be a mentor to me.

But I wanted to go the completely opposite way as my sister.

When you're 17, 18, it's different.

Yeah, and I had heard my whole life, you're Patrisse's little sister, you're Patrisse's little sister.

And so my sister went to Western Kentucky University.

And so I was just like, I don't care where I go, I'm not going to WKU.

Well, fast forward, I went to WKU.

I could not escape it.

I actually did not get into the University of Kentucky, but it actually was something at the time that I did not see as a blessing and an opportunity.

But once I did enroll and got admitted to WKU, that is where I will say things started to kickstart for me.

So when I started WKU as a first year student, my major was, I was a special education major.

I wanted to be a special education teacher.

And I would say that some of those leadership skills got me thinking about education, probably because that's what I saw, women that looked like me serving in more educational teacher roles.

But I was also very passionate with working with individuals with disabilities, those visible and invisible.

And so I was a special education major up until my sophomore year.

And I'm not gonna lie, it just was so boring.

It was, I just wasn't-

It wasn't intriguing to you.

Yeah, it just wasn't intriguing to me.

I had an advisor that really kind of discouraged me from even wanting to continue down that path because I started my first year and I did not prioritize my studies the best.

I was talking too much.

I was doing the clothes.

It carried over.

It carried over.

Outside of the classroom.

Outside of the classroom.

But fun fact, it then connected the final dot for me though.

And so my second semester of my first year, I was in a public speaking class.

How'd that go?

It went extremely well.

I always tell everyone I gained two things.

I gained a new major because I then changed my major to communication studies and I gained a mentor.

And so my professor at the time, her name was Donna.

So Donna, if you're listening, I tell the story to everybody, but she really did help me see something in me that I did not see in myself and provide purpose and understanding behind the talk too much comments.

Being a communication studies major, people assume and perceive that all you do is public speak.

But that introductory course to public speaking, it really did get my mind to open up to this world to learn about how do we communicate and why do people communicate the way that they do, communication being cultural.

It was just this world that was super fascinating to me.

And so I changed my major, went into being a comm studies major, and I had a minor in meeting convention and exposition planning.

So for lack of better words, event planning.

And yeah.

And then at that time, because I had mentors that were guiding me, molding me, they were helping me think about how to connect my, you know, my personal out of classroom experiences to my potential career.

And so then my leadership positions, they then started to tailor to stuff that was connected to my academic major, which is something that I would tell any student to start doing, especially a part of your like junior and your senior years.

And so I then was a communication studies major, a event planning minor, later went on and went to graduate school at the University of Mississippi.

And I got my degree in higher education administration, a master's of arts.

But that sort of came about because while I was a undergraduate student, I got involved with out of classroom experiences, one being housing and residence life.

And I got my roots in housing.

That's where I learned to me the bread and butter when it comes to the university, how a university moves, the resources, what does it mean to live on campus, and what does it mean to support students that do live on campus?

And so that's where my love for higher education was then introduced, because I needed a job and I started as a desk assistant and it opened my world up to this whole other, to me, area of education that I just didn't know about growing up.

Like I knew about college, but I didn't know it was higher education, right?

So you had a real big journey to get there, and it's so cool to hear all of the different parts.

You do a good job at articulating each part because they all influence one another.

What was that like when you got the rejection letter to Kentucky?

Well, it wasn't my first form of rejection that I experienced, but I definitely think that that rejection moment of me getting rejected by UK, I felt just not good enough.

I was like, I didn't have the grades.

It was kind of like, how dare they tell me that I can't go.

Like, that's not allowed.

Yeah, I was like, I'm a really good student.

And at the time, I want to say that's when I did not really understand the importance of like standardized testing and really giving your school your all.

I knew that I should be a really good student in high school, but I just didn't take those things seriously until, yeah, it came to me wanting to go to college.

But I got a little frustrated.

I got frustrated that what my GPA is on paper, that was the narrative of who I was then as a student going forward.

When I was a really good student, that was probably gonna excel even in the UK system, but because I was on paper, no, not to my academic standards, well, not to their academic standards, I had to find a different route.

You would have crushed it.

I would have crushed it, but, you know, how do you take something that was rejection and then turn it into a positive?

Because then it redirected me to where I really was supposed to be and where I found my purpose.

So I don't fault it at all, but I will definitely say it was one of the first moments of rejection that I experienced that made me not feel good enough for college, yeah.

It's so relatable and that's why whenever you're talking about it, I wanted to push a little further to hear what you said because I've been rejected and I remember those feelings of being like, oh man, but I see you now and you are doing all these different things.

So obviously you didn't stop there, right?

So it's like, okay, what did that look like?

You had mentioned that you always talk to people and sometimes they like docked you for it, right?

Like you didn't get the perfect report card because they'd say, hey, she's talking to people.

Did you feel like shame there?

Or did you feel like, why can't I not talk to people?

Because I imagine that after a few different people telling you like, hey, quit talking in class, you're like, all right, I'm gonna try not to talk in class and then before you know it, you're talking in class.

No, I don't remember specifically like at what age, when I started to be rebellious, but I will say that no matter how many marks on my report card, my parents will even tell you that that was something that no one could stop me from doing.

I am a talker, I like to get to know other people.

My voice, like I can't be silenced, right?

Even though I have in other spaces been silenced, but it was just something that, I don't know if I had the ability to control at a young age, but transitioning to now and like how I felt at that time, I definitely think that it wasn't me sort of feeling like, darn, they don't want me to talk to folks.

But I do think that there were moments where I felt as if I got labeled from like my peers as possibly being disingenuine or, you know, that random girl that's just randomly talking to folks.

But those were more so haters.

Those are people that really desired and really yearned for that ability that I had that they then wanted.

They wanted to talk to people.

Yeah, but I've always been that person at a young age.

I would talk to the random kid in the classroom that didn't have any friends next to them, or I would be the glue to bring everybody together or two total different demographics of folks now partnering on a project or sitting together at the lunch table.

And so I definitely think that even now as an adult, I even can see and feel how some folks can be intimidated by my ability to walk into a room and talk to folks.

But I think that extrovert personality that I do have, I have learned different ways to channel that energy, to be a connector, to be a bridge for those that may not have that ability to do that.

But there are definitely moments where I get like a little nervous or I also may shy away from speaking to folks.

But most of the time, I am my best when I am just talking to random folks and when it's happening at a natural state.

Yeah, so I was on LinkedIn and I found this study and it looked at, it said, we have a network, right?

Out of all of our, imagine all the people in your life and that is your social network.

And in the social network, we have different categories of people.

So one category is the stranger.

So you're walking on campus, you see someone with a backpack, like, hey, how you doing, right?

You're walking to class, like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So any conversation that you have that goes beyond, how are you?

And it's like, good.

Then we count that as like an engaged conversation.

So how are you doing, what class you headed to, what major, da, da, da, one engaged conversation.

And that's with the category of stranger.

And what this study showed was that the more categories that we interact with on a daily basis, so one category is stranger, one could be a friend at work, one could be a romantic partner, one could be a family member, one could be someone you work out with at the gym, like an acquaintance, the more of those you can hit in one day, the better your mood is.

And the more happiness you report.

So science says it's good for you to talk to people, right?

And naturally, you kind of had that superpower of, hey, I'm gonna be talking to people, but the school system, it's not really rewarding that.

You know what I mean?

Particularly whenever you're sitting down, and I know people say you need to, in order to educate a group of people, you have to have them focus on one certain thing.

But sometimes, there's just people who are like, they learn differently, right?

Like me, I did okay, but there was a lot of times where I wanted to talk, you know, like talk, talk, talk, talk, talk.

And that's why I get to do this now, thankfully.

Like I'm so grateful I'm not working in IT, right?

Like doing programming, and I'm so grateful that we get to sit down and talk and create it into a podcast that other people can listen to and think to themselves, oh, hey, maybe I should talk more, you know?

So hearing that, I encourage you to keep it up because scientists say you're doing something good.

Yeah, and I, one, I wholeheartedly agree that talking to people just makes life happier.

I always tell folks and people tell.

Me that you never meet a stranger.

And it's the truth about me.

I am, I can literally talk to someone randomly walking down the street.

And, you know, I will say that it's been moments in my life when I've had, you know, a terrible day and the most randomest person, someone who may not look like me, someone who may not even be walking in the right direction, same direction as me, someone had stopped me and said hello or how are you doing, or just stated something to me.

And you know how when you're like battling with something in the one moment, someone asks you something and then you like burst into tears.

You know, that has happened to me on different occasions.

And, you know, those individuals randomly talking to me, they may not even realize it, but that made all the difference in my life in that moment that day.

And I will definitely say that when I was in college before, I was really going through a lot.

And it was just a random person that randomly said something to me that shifted my perspective in that moment that really turned my entire like thought process around with what I was battling at the time.

And so I do make it my business, my priority to talk to random people because you never know how a smile, a hello, an actual how are you doing?

And then listening to the response.

You gotta listen.

I mean, we just naturally say, hey, how are you?

And then we just keep on walking and we don't really care.

But you never know what magnitude of impact you can have in a person's life by truly checking in on them.

And you never know, you might save a life too.

Yeah, totally.

You hear those stories, right?

People who are like, man, because of this conversation or because I heard this thing, I was about to head home and do this really devastating action, but instead I heard this and that changed the trajectory just a little bit, but enough for a life change.

Absolutely.

So you are talking to people all the time and you may be wired like me because I'm thinking about, ooh, there's all these people out there, but there's no stranger, because we all have something in common, right?

Like I am working with the Boys and Girls Club, we're like, oh, hey, I went to the Boys and Girls Club.

I'm like, well, that's cool, right?

Like we could talk about that for an hour, talk about all of the moments you've had at the club and what we've realized is the more and more we talk to people, the more we realize we have all these different commonalities.

What does improvement look like when it comes to talking with people and getting to know those around you?

That's a really, actually a really good question.

I am a extrovert to the, you know.

Capital E.

Capital E, everyone that knows me knows that.

But I also know that I need to be around people that also ground me and that are different than me.

And so I learned that, and this will be a tip that I would give someone, is that no matter how you might identify as far as a communicator, that everyone's different and that you can have a conversation with anyone, but what that person brings is unique to them.

It shouldn't mirror the things that you say or what you say.

There can be similarities, but what that person will bring will always be different and should be different because that's the beauty of us being different.

And then in that same process that you gotta listen, you just have to listen.

It is so easy to talk, but if you're never taking the time to actually listen to others, one, you're not growing because all you hear is yourself.

And then it could just be in that process of growing, it's just missed opportunity for you to really get to know that person beyond the surface because you're not listening.

You're listening to respond versus listening to receive.

And so that's actually something that I practice in my relationship that when I do find myself listening to respond, I'll just walk away.

Yeah, it's like, oh, I got that point.

Let me just pause, maybe walk away.

Or like in meetings too, like, I mean, we all do it at times.

You might be, you have an idea, it's really burning, it's pressing.

You wanna get it out of your mind before you forget it.

But definitely when I'm in networking conversations and definitely in spaces where there is so many people.

So if I was imagining being in a room full of extroverts, I would try to pause and work the room a little so that I can also listen to receive some things too, versus just me leading with my own agenda or what it is that I have to say.

So I would say like taking a pause too is helpful.

And then I would, the last thing I would say is communication is cultural.

We're all different, but the way we communicate often connects to your upbringing, your culture, your household, you know, the things.

And also access.

We don't talk about that enough.

But I actually did not mention this, but growing up, I used to be super insecure about the way I used to talk.

And now, you know, I take pride in it, but I would always get picked on, oh, you sound country, right?

I would always sound-

Because you had an accent?

Or I would use, misuse the wrong word, and it would not have the same value or meaning that I thought.

But it was because some of my experiences were limited, right, in my community, who I was learning from, what I was learning from.

And so I would misuse some words.

And so that's at times, you know, when I was in different environments, in school or engaging with those that maybe had access to different resources beyond that I was, I would feel intimidated in those instances.

But then I would go home and I would talk about those experiences with like my parents, my grandparents in particular.

My grandmother was really like a champion, a cheerleader for me.

And she would always say, you're a Freeman, you're a Freeman.

And keeping my confidence high that whether you say a word wrong or you use it in an incorrect way that you control the conversation, right?

Yeah, and I learned how to do that early.

And I still use those similar tactics to today because as a woman of color, as a black woman, yes, I am serving in a leadership position, but it's times where I'm in different spaces where I am the only one.

And sometimes based off of my identities, I might have gotten a seat at the table, but I may not have been given an opportunity to actually speak.

And so when I am in those moments, I'm remembering those things to communicate and ensure that my voice is heard.

And so I would say that it has been instances of those too.

That's awesome.

Shout out to your grandma.

Yes, shout out to granny.

Because saying you are a Freeman, that's like saying, do not forget yourself, regardless of whether or not this person laughed at you or said you sounded funny.

And it's the eternal truth, the outside circumstances should not affect this.

Exactly.

Right?

Exactly.

Shout out to granny.

Yeah, shout out to granny.

And honestly, that situation, and I'll give you like an example of what I'm talking about, definitely for the folks to hear, but you know the word converse.

Yeah.

And you hear people use it incorrectly all the time.

They'll say conversate, right?

And growing up, I would hear converse, use this conversate all the time.

It would be in music that I would listen to.

It would be in casual conversations I would have.

And that was a word that I adopted, adapted to, I used.

And I'll never forget being in a space and they were like, this is not the right word.

And pretty much embarrassed me.

But if I did not, you know, I went home and I would cry about it.

And then my granny would say, no, in those situations, you remember who you are because we should not embarrass people.

We should also create educational moments to share our knowledge and access.

And so some of those things I think are, they get overlooked or not as prioritized when you think about communication and what does it mean to communicate with other folks too.

Yeah.

And those people who get hung up on what words he is are buzz kills.

Yeah, buzz kills.

They are like, come on, what is your life like?

Outside of this, do you go home and you just watch TV and you're like, stop it, stop it, stop it.

He miss said a word, I'm gonna write to the producer.

It's like, and I've heard that word, I heard that last week.

I heard someone say conversate, right?

Get together and conversate.

It's like, cool, and I knew what you meant.

And I wasn't like, hey, you mean converse?

They're like, okay, well, just talk, right?

Exactly.

And I love that you said it's a cultural experience because it totally is.

Depending on where you grew up, you say things differently.

And it's so big for the United States because my last guest that I had on was from Israel and he was talking about Israel.

And I was thinking about it and Israel is the size of New Jersey.

So all of the, like Israel is a very rich culture.

The United States is such a big country compared to other countries, which is why Annie, she'll say, she may not say this as much, but if you go to Annie's Neck of the Woods, they'll say like, oh, there's the American flag.

I'm like, American flag, what you mean?

And I'm like, oh, look at the flag, right?

And then you go to all these other spaces and they all have different accents.

They all say different things.

There's phrases that I learned this phrase from her, on the mend, he's on the mend.

Have you heard that before?

Yeah, me neither.

Or not until, and that means like, he's recovering from an illness.

So he's mending, he's on the mend.

Or what's another word that I've, or another phrase that I learned from Wisconsin?

Well, one that to me is like everywhere that we debate about is like pop versus soda, right?

They're the same meaning, but depending on where you live, you might call them differently.

And then how you pronounce them will also look and sound differently based on where you are.

What were you growing up, pop or soda?

Pop, me too.

Do you still say pop?

I still say pop.

I switched.

Really?

Yeah.

Now I say soda.

You gotta remember you're a Miller.

Right, I know.

I gotta remember my roots.

I need to start calling it pop.

And then another thing that is like disgusting for the people who probably are like, are you serious?

I've been saying Caramel, but I grew up saying Caramel.

Yeah.

What did I grow up saying?

I think I grew up saying Caramel too.

But I might say them both now.

Yeah, you switch.

Caramel or Caramel.

What about Almond?

Did you just say Almond?

Yeah, Almond.

Because I've heard someone say Almonds.

I've heard the Bags versus Bags.

Yeah.

Well, I don't even know how to pronounce it, but Wisconsin.

Bags.

Yes, see?

Yup.

Yeah, the bagel.

So it is a cultural experience and that's just pronunciation, but the phrases we use, how we say them, and also volume, pacing.

One of my best friends, he's from Trinidad, and his dad, I'd always go to their house growing up, and his dad speaks a mile a minute.

Yeah, what?

And then my dad's really slow.

So culture influences your pacing, your pronunciation, your enunciation, how loud you talk.

I played soccer with some guys that were from a lot of different countries.

We had like 16 countries represented on the field at one time.

And there was one guy who talked like this close to my face.

And he wasn't trying to be weird.

That was just what he was used to, right?

So that intercultural experience, it's so interesting to me.

And I definitely think that based off of your identities, there are things that your community will only know what you're talking about because of similar identities that you hold.

Like, I'm trying to think of a phrase that is used in the black community that all black folks, depending on, no matter wherever you, what state you live in within the US, will use, I'm trying to think of one, but I can definitely share that like, depending on also your community and how you identify, that there's also just cultural slogans, sayings, understandings that just naturally come with just your identities that most folks won't know because you don't identify in that way.

I definitely know that there are quite a bunch in the black community that if you write something down, it's like, if you know, you know, right?

Yeah, so it's definitely cultural.

Yeah, and if you're in one, you grew up in one place and then you say something from the place you grew up in a different place a bit, like, what was that, right?

That was weird.

And I think same thing with like identities.

You may have a friend who's of a different identity and then you say something that you heard them say, and then people are like, what?

You know, like, what are you doing?

And it's like, oh, so like trying to figure out all of the nuance is hard.

But I do, like, I hear you whenever you're talking about having a Southern accent, because I had one of the most brilliant professors I ever had.

He was from Louisiana and he had a Southern accent and he was really involved in debate.

But what he recognized was he would be saying the same arguments as someone who was from, like, for instance, he would go to Harvard and go to these debate tournaments.

He'd be saying some of the same arguments, but since he had a Southern accent, people would almost, like, check him out, like, intelligence-wise.

They would perceive him to be not as intelligent as somebody who is just from the North.

And he trained himself to not have a Southern accent.

Yeah, and that makes me think about code-switching for me.

And what that looks like, because I definitely think that just as a person and as a professional, I try to show up as myself in all settings.

Those that know me, I take pride in, you're gonna get the same energy from Paige, no matter the setting, right?

And that is more of a promise and a commitment to me of me just staying true to who I am and what I bring to a space.

But depending on the space, I do realize that based off of my identities, I have to navigate them differently.

And me navigating them differently connects to my safety in that space.

And with some of the things, like exactly what you just spoke about with the faculty member that was a part of the debate of how he trained himself to not have an accent just so that he could be perceived as intelligent.

One, I hate that, right?

Because I think that one, we're putting people in boxes, but then also we are capitalizing or emphasizing that there's only one way to speak and represent oneself when it's a multitude of languages, how we speak, how we communicate, all these different things.

And this should be, we should create space for that to be welcomed.

But I cannot say that that does not happen to me all the time, right?

I am, depending on the space, I'm gonna be more comfortable with being even more vocal with my accent and how I position my words and what words I'm also gonna introduce.

And like, for an example, like if I am more in group settings with my friends or with colleagues who I do perceive as friends after work or at work, I might use slang, but if I am in a meeting and I am presenting, then I am going to put on my professional voice and demand the room.

And I think that it's problematic that we have to code switch, right?

For folks of color and folks with marginalized identities in general.

But for me, it's a safety tactic.

It is me ensuring that when I am in those spaces, you're not just giving me a seat at the table, but I am voicing what it is that I have to say in that space.

But then also I'm communicating in a way for you to hear me.

And I would love for us to get to a place where we don't have to code switch.

But again, I think for folks from marginalized communities, it all connects back to safety for them.

And well, for us.

And I always like joke with folks that I do feel comfortable and safe with.

For me, I'm from Kentucky.

I know a lot of people feel they do or do not classify that as the South, but for me, it's the South.

And so I naturally like I have Kentucky slang and then I spent two years in Mississippi.

And so I feel like I also, yeah, I got some of Mississippi's language and communication also.

So I say that I have Mississippi twang.

And cause I think that also just being in, growing up in Kentucky and being in Mississippi for two years and then being in Kansas, those are three different areas and people sound differently and communicate extremely different based off of those demographic areas of the world.

And so I know for a fact that I have an accent and how I communicate, definitely it's layered.

And I'll pull back those layers depending on the setting and the setting will depend on my safety.

So it's definitely co-switching.

There's some cool research about that.

They call it communication accommodation theory, right?

We accommodate to one another and meet in the middle and your background and my background, however that fits, we'll find it and then we stay in that lane.

But there are moments where you probably have moments to where you fall out of character, right?

Like you're like, oh, I didn't mean to say that phrase.

Like I, for instance, like me calling one of my bosses, bro, like what's up, bro?

You know, and then I'm like, shoot, maybe I shouldn't have said that, right?

Because earlier I was hanging out with a friend of mine who was really comfortable with saying bro.

And then I got this going on, which is way different.

All of these things are what makes communication so cool, but also some of the reasons why people don't do it.

They overthink it, right?

And I think it's really good for us to talk about because we're wrapping words around maybe some of the fears and anxieties that people have, particularly interacting with people who didn't grow up like they grew up, right?

Like being so nervous that, oh man, what if I don't say the right thing or what if they're mean to me because what I may bring to the table is different than what they bring to the table.

I remember going to grad school.

I was very intimidated because nobody in my family had gone to grad school.

And I was like, I knew I was raising the standard of education for my family, yet I also knew that the person who was sitting next to me, his family's net worth was like literally, not joking, a thousand times mine.

And just thinking in yourself like, whoa, and associating your value with net worth or associating your value with accolades and feeling so intimidated.

And I had a professor and he said, yeah, they're really smart at Harvard.

They are.

He goes, he was the director and he goes, yeah, they're really smart at Harvard.

But he's like, but you could have been there too.

It's just, you didn't grow up in Massachusetts.

You didn't know that Ivy League schools were a big thing.

You didn't know that you should go to boarding school and boarding schools will prep you.

Like we had a guest on who was at a boarding school in Massachusetts and whenever you were in ninth grade, the status quo was to go to Ivy League.

It was like, okay, I'm gonna go to Ivy League.

So he went to Princeton and I was like, wow, that must've been a big deal that you're in Princeton.

And he was like, well, I mean, everybody else went.

So it wasn't a big deal, right?

It's like the backgrounds, but us talking about it, I think is so important because we get to wrap words around it and we get to take it apart and we get to like tell people.

It's okay.

Like it's complicated, but the best thing to do is just start working with the people around you and figure it out as you go.

Absolutely.

Talk to your neighbor.

Talk to your neighbor.

Literally, definitely, I think that talking to your neighbor or talking to folks at the grocery store, with it not being something that is connecting you all, those are random interactions that you can just start by just saying hello and getting more comfortable with just talking to strangers.

But I definitely think that talking to strangers, in my opinion, I feel more comfortable talking to a stranger than talking to someone that I know, because the stranger doesn't know me.

Blank slate.

Yeah, and so you can show up however you want in the conversation, but.

Which is tough because what we do is we kind of fear, once people get to know us, one of the guys that came on, he shares his story about mental health and he got to a really dark point.

And there was substance abuse involved, there was suicidal ideation involved, he was betraying his loved ones, because he just wasn't there.

And he shares this to these really big schools, but he's like, I'm so nervous, because this upcoming year, I'm gonna be sharing it to my home school, and people know me there.

And it's tough that we get caught up in that, it's like that concept of the airplane conversation.

There's this idea of sitting next to a stranger, and then you dump on them, because you know you're not gonna see them again, and like that judgment or baggage isn't there.

Sometimes I feel similar, I'd rather talk to a stranger, because you know that they're not gonna be like, hey bro, what did I tell you last time?

Yeah, yeah, or like even for me, it's like more easier to like own my truth, tell my story when I'm talking to people that don't know fully, you know, beyond just, you know, communication.

And I don't know why that is, and I don't know if it's because that person doesn't know you from anywhere, or if it's more difficult or becomes more real for you to voice and share with somebody that you know.

I haven't arrived there yet, but I think that those that are able to communicate their truth or about, you know, a topic to someone that they know, it takes more strength to do that than to even do with a stranger, depending on the person, I think.

That's interesting.

Yeah.

My hunch is part of it is because the person who knows you has seen you mess up, or they've seen you.

For instance, this is a big thing for ministers in the church.

They will become...

They're living a life that is different than the life they live after they encounter God.

And what they'll do is they'll tell everybody about it.

They'll evangelize.

They'll be like, oh my gosh, this is saving my life.

But they don't even tell their parents because telling their parents, having that conversation with their parents, it's like, they know me too well.

You know, it's like too real.

And it's the fear of someone saying like, oh, you're a minister.

What about that thing you did two years ago?

You know what I mean?

I mean, like things like that.

But with The Stranger, it's blank slate, tabula rasa.

We get to start over again.

And the podcast, I was self-conscious about the podcast.

I still kind of am.

I was nervous about talking about the podcast because I didn't want people to say, everybody's got a podcast.

He's just promoting his stuff.

But to a stranger, I could say, oh, I'm a podcaster.

And they're like, oh, tell me about your podcast.

But it's so natural because I get to reinvent myself each interaction I have with a stranger.

It's making me think about how it even might feel comfortable to talk to a stranger.

It is still important to talk to those you know.

It is.

And that might be the hard part for a lot of folks, but it's a part of also learning how to communicate.

And for me, communicating with like family, my friends from home, it might look and feel a little different, but I still try to show up in the same very way.

Because one day I owe that to them too, and they deserve to also get the very best versions of me.

But then also, if I'm gonna be making a difference in a stranger's life, I wanna make that same difference in my family and my friends' lives too.

So I also try to really incorporate those same things into like my daily type of interactions with my family and my friends, of just checking in and having difficult conversations.

Sometimes I wanna talk too much about conversations, but...

That's good, and that's hard, because a lot of people who would identify as extroverts, what they do is they have so many different people in their life, but they never really go truly deep with that many people.

And that's something I struggle with, is I'll have all these people in my life, but it's like, how many of them are like, really, really, really real?

You know?

Hey, I'm posting this, I'm doing that, yeah, that was so awesome, so good to see you at that event.

Yeah, sweet, I love collaborating with you.

But not many people are like, hey, bro, how's your mom?

You know?

I heard your mom's sick, how's she doing?

And I wish more people would ask me, but that's on...

A lot of that's on me, because I'm not opening up, you know?

Would you identify with that?

Or are you pretty good at making sure you got some really tight people as well?

Well, I think a little.

I would identify similarly a little bit of that way.

I think for me, my...

I'm like a person, so one, my zodiac sign, I'm a cancer.

So, I'm a feeler, I'm a person that if something's on my mind, Chris, is one, you're gonna physically, you know, visibly be able to see something is bothering her.

Or you know, if something's not sitting well with me and I really need to get something off my chest, I think that those that know me, even in the workplace, can probably pick up that pretty quickly from me.

And so I do think that for me, depending on the person in the top it, I may stall a little, you know, to have a difficult conversation.

But I'm never a person that I cannot not have the conversation.

So you'll delay because like you're anxious?

I might be anxious, or I may be overthinking.

I'm also an over processor or an over communicator in my own head, where I am like talking to myself about like the best approach and then I may talk myself out of actually having a conversation.

So you'll rehearse something in your head?

Yes.

And you play it, play it, play it.

Yes.

Yes.

So those are like tactics of mine that I have grown to be more like self aware of when that's happening.

And I learned that whenever I'm sort of talking myself out of a situation or I'm overthinking it, it's usually because it's something that is making me uncomfortable or challenging me too much.

Right?

So everybody likes to be challenged and I've learned that when I am being challenged in that way, it's more easier for me to go to what's comfortable for me.

And what I've tried to do is try to lean in a little bit better to that.

However, I don't think that I'm not able to open up, I think my family and my friends probably will say I'm kind of a open book in a way.

But I do think that depending on the topic, when it becomes more like personal and you're like in my business, like business business, then I can become a little guarded.

And so that's where I was getting at like, I don't know if I have conquered, you know, being able to voice, you know, my story and it's full totality, right, because those are also connected to different people.

But depending on the space, you know, I am able to let my guard down and my safety level, I'm able to communicate freely and openly.

But there, I would say like at the surface and I would maybe even say beyond the surface, I'm pretty open.

But, you know, it's just when they get in my business, you know, layered underneath is where I could see that.

Those layers, that's the thing is, it's the way I'm talking about the same thing too, right?

Like I can show off the top layer of the onion and the second layer, maybe even the third layer.

But then we were like, what about that fourth one, the fifth one, I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you know, pump the brakes.

Or, oh, I got to ask you this or what I also and maybe you do this.

So I am able to be open, but then say when someone does reach out to me to want to check in on me or, you know, they were trying to communicate with me if it is, you know, depending on the topic, sometimes I can maybe be untruthful in my responses, you know, where I am altering them.

I'm not being super honest.

So you're being open, but not really.

I've been open, but I am still being vague, not being vulnerable.

You're being vulnerable.

Yes.

Yes.

Oh man.

I'm right there with you.

I will.

I have this therapist right now, which I like because what he'll do is he can see through that.

Yeah.

And he'll be like, for instance, there's this one time where I was talking for like 15 minutes and he goes, you just said nothing.

And I was upset with him.

I was like, what do you mean I said nothing?

I pride myself on being a communicator in positioning words in a sequence that has impact and all this stuff.

And he's like, you just sounded all fancy.

Like you said nothing right there.

And it took multiple times.

But recently, we've got to the point to where something's happening, right?

And I really identify with that.

It's the difference.

It's like we're putting on a show because we know how important it is to be open.

So we're like, oh, yeah, we're open.

But we also know how hard it is to be vulnerable.

Yes.

I'll definitely admit that for sure.

I think like I can say like, yeah, talk, talk, talk.

And then when someone reaches out, depending on the topic, you know, I may not be as fully honest with my response to how are you doing?

No, I'm actually not doing well and all of these things.

And I think that I have gotten better at being more honest with myself.

And I think that me being honest with myself has allowed for me to be more honest with others in my responses, because people can, they can sense that.

And you can sense that when you are, when someone's communicating with you or when you are also asking somebody, how are you doing?

You don't really care.

You're just asking to ask and to go on about your day.

Yeah, yeah.

And so I think that that is definitely something that is an area that I like to think I'm a pretty vulnerable person, but, you know, it requires you to take different risks.

And depending on the setting, I'm able to let my guard down a little bit more and differently, depending on the risk, you know?

So yeah, I would definitely say that.

Because it's tough because vulnerability is you have to be wise with who you share with.

You know what I mean?

And I, we probably think about that a lot, like being choosy.

But the downside of it is you've been there before, you know, something, imagine a person that you know decently well, and you know, they're upset and you say, Hey, how are you?

What's going on?

And they're just like, I'm fine.

I'm fine.

I'm fine.

But you know, that they're upset.

The downside is gaslighting, meaning I'm going to make you believe that everything's okay, despite everything not being okay.

And even though you can, your emotional intelligence can read me, and your emotional intelligence is accurate, there actually is nothing going on, I'm going to make you feel like your read is wrong.

And that's really, that's, that's not good.

And it's like a good thing for us to be like vulnerable and whatever people are talking to us about things, to be truthful with them, because the last thing I would want is someone who is emotionally intelligent and actually caring about me, for me to be like, Oh, no, you're actually wrong.

Yeah, it's like, come on.

Yeah.

Because it does.

I mean, it creates barriers, like your family and your friends know you.

And I would even argue that depending on the amount of time that you spend at work, your coworkers also know you.

And so if someone does take the time to ask you how you're doing on those bad days, we got to normalize just voicing and owning.

I'm having a pretty shitty day, excuse me, like a pretty shitty day.

And I may not want to be talked to.

And that is okay.

Right?

Or, I am having a very good day, and these are all the reasons why.

Let me give you some of that energy back, you know?

But I definitely think that we just have to normalize it more, that it is okay to voice that.

And I think for me, it's like, I don't want to always be perceived or sound like a complainer, but it's okay to complain about some things that you need to.

It's a part of healing in the same instance, complaining, getting it off your chest, and then shifting to being more solution oriented.

Or if getting it off of your mind and talking about it to someone could possibly help you gain a better approach to addressing a situation or help you maybe think of the situation from a different angle.

And maybe you're not beating yourself up about something that really was out of your control, but you needed someone else to tell you that that's not yours to hold.

You need that perspective.

And I think that's something I want to...

People will be probably stereotypically for men, whenever you're a little boy and you are sad about something and you're sharing your emotions a bit, cry baby.

You know, don't be a little baby.

Suck it up.

It is what it is.

You get what you get and you don't throw a fit, like all of these phrases, but associating emotional expression and emotional disclosure with being weak really screws things up.

Yes, it does.

It absolutely does.

And I think that that's a unique perspective that you bring to young boys, right?

I definitely think that in the black community, in the community that I grew up within, you know, it is you're taught to not be weak, right?

Us as little girls, we're taught to be strong.

We're taught to be independent.

We're taught to not depend on anyone, right?

And that it transfers into this whole other, to me, phase of life, you then being an adult, trying to now become more comfortable with your emotions, how to make meaning of them and how to voice them in a healthy way.

Some of those things, if we start them young and do them earlier or they are woven into some of our households, can really help save a lot of lives, but also break a lot of generational curses too that are, I would say, pretty obvious in no matter what community that you come from.

But definitely, just creating a culture of, to me, it's like wellness and welfare of people.

And it's just being able to talk about things, it's just so important.

And another area that I get a lot of slack back from is me being a cancer.

Everyone always talks about my Zodiac sign and they're like, cancers are crybabies and this and that.

And when I tell you, Chris, I used to hate being called a crybaby growing up.

But I got to admit, I was a crybaby.

I cried about everything.

If I didn't get my way, I cried about it.

And still to this day, my family, my friends will joke, and I'm a proud crybaby.

You know, I'm a proud crybaby.

Yes.

But all of that to say, like we get a lot of pushback for us being emotional creatures.

But the reason, and to me, like it takes so much strength to be emotional, and to be expressive of your emotions, to understand your emotions, to understand the emotions of other people.

And that's just to me like something that I don't even have kids, but when I do, I will create a community, a space within our family household where you can talk about your emotions.

I think the importance is understanding your emotions, and that's where I shifted from me being teased and hating being called a crybaby from growing up.

I didn't understand all the time why I was crying, because I was not being supported in that process.

Okay, let's understand your emotions.

Use your words, and so now I'm able to articulate that.

And for me, I'll tell anybody, I want to talk through those emotions, and sometimes that could be intimidating for others, but we shouldn't project on the other people and make them not feel whole to share their emotions and express themselves.

Totally, I'm imagining you being teased, and you're like, come on.

Emotional intelligence, emotional expression.

There's a book, you know Brene Brown.

She has this book, and I referred to it once.

I need to refer, I need to get the title, but I'll put it in the show notes.

I'll write this down, put it in the show notes, so people can check out the book.

But what it is, is it's her going through like 120 different emotions and writing what they are, because she says, imagine waking up one morning and you have this pain in your back.

It's so excruciating.

I have to get this checked out.

So you go to the doctor's office, but the pain has gotten so bad that you can't even move your hands to point at it, and you can't talk about it.

You're just in so much excruciating pain.

And the doctor's like, what's wrong, what's wrong, what's wrong?

And it's so helpless to be in this position to where you're hurting, but you can't say anything about it because you don't know how to talk about it.

And that oftentimes is where we are when we're in a position where we're frozen, we're crying, we're overwhelmed, we can't catch our breath.

It's because we don't have the tools, we don't have the equipment, the knowledge to navigate all that emotion.

So, teaching people how to do that and teaching your kids how to do that, it starts at the dinner table, right?

Being able to do that is huge.

Men, women, whoever, old or younger, whatever age you are, if you can equip yourself to look through all the emotions and be like, oh, I'm experiencing, am I experiencing shame or am I experiencing guilt?

Am I sad that he left?

Or am I actually upset with him because he said he was gonna be here?

You know, like navigating all of that is so good.

Absolutely, it is, it's needed.

Okay, I have a couple, I have two final questions for you.

I could ask you a whole bunch, but I know that you probably have like 10 other podcasts to get to.

Oh no.

Because you probably have like international media tour going on.

Oh, whatever.

And I get to start it off with you.

But I have a question about a book.

What has been a book that's really improved your life after reading it and that could improve the listener's life?

That's a really, really good question.

So I want to highlight two.

One, I'm not a huge reader so that you know.

But I'm not a huge reader because I am like such a big procrastinator too.

And so I'm like the person that starts books and never finish books.

But now that I am a doctoral student, all of my books are connected to my study topic.

And so I'm very passionate about black women experiences and black women experiences in higher education.

And so my research is gonna focus on racial affinity groups.

And so for undergraduate black women, those that specifically attend predominantly white institutions.

And so like, what are the benefits of racial affinity groups?

Why are they relevant?

Why are they needed?

What are the, you know, the benefits for institutions that offer these to folks?

And I chose that topic because racial affinity groups have been near and dear, I would say community organizations that have saved me in the academic setting.

And so, for an example, a racial affinity group could be a sorority.

So I am a member of Delta Sigma Theta Sorority Incorporated, and that is a historic black sorority, right?

So because we all share the identity of being a woman, being black, and we all are essentially together for one similar purpose, our sorority and our sorority principles, that's what makes it a racial affinity group.

And so basically, a group of folks that come together, identify similarly for a similar topic and reason.

And so I share this context to say a lot of my books connect to that, but there are two books.

One, and I do not know the artists of either of these, two books that to me have been life-changing.

One is Why All the Black Kids Sit Together in the Cafeteria.

So I don't know if you've heard that one.

And then another book that I'm reading right now that I'm pulling a lot from is Black Women and Girls in Higher Education.

And it's basically different stories and sort of monologues that are written by different black women in higher education that all connect back to understanding black women experiences in this world of higher ed.

And I share both of those simply because Why All the Black Kids Sit Together in the Cafeteria, I think is one, a really good educational book for those that do not identify as black or African American to just gain better context and understanding of black people in the, you know, in education in general.

And then the Black Women in Higher Education book, I shared that one because it has been a pivotal book for me to better understand my community in different ways that, whoo, I don't even think I knew how, you know, like a world of putting thoughts, experiences, yeah, thoughts, experiences, examples to correct terminology.

Like you stated earlier, like the word gaslighting, and there is even text within there that speaks to black women being primary victims of gaslighting and how that shows up in the education system.

And I really, really like the Black Women in Higher Ed book, and I'm probably getting the title wrong, so please do not.

Yeah, I'll text it to you so people can see it.

But one, it's helping me better understand the population that I'm researching, so black women in undergraduate careers.

But then also, I love that it's written by black women for everyone in the world to learn, but also it is written in black women language.

So it's so funny that we're talking about communication, but everything from the titles to the slogans to the quotes to the pictures, everything is connected back to us.

And I love that.

One of the chapters, I forget what it's called, but it's focused on like twerking.

And it's really dissecting twerking and how the media might perceive twerking and highlight twerking as this form of vulgar dancing.

Yeah, sexualized, booty shaking.

And unfortunately, the way that the world views those that twerk, they're also equating their educational, their status, how they identify educationally, their net worth.

Where we are, basically those individuals that we perceive and how society sort of sexualizes or brings awareness is not a lot of value that we are giving to such a really a rooted, connected back to black culture of dancing, like a purpose, and really was a survival tactic for black people.

And so the section on twerking is talking about how black women have utilized dance as a form of expression and how dancing and twerking could also be avenues for education and spreading and gaining our understanding of black women in higher ed from a different lens and in a different way.

And so the book is giving readers tangible tactics to be able to take away to better understand that population.

And so to me, that would be a book that I would say has been pretty life changing.

It's actually a very new book.

And it's a book that my advisor taught me about and was like, you need to get this book and you need to read it up on it because it is something that I think will help you.

One, just think about things differently.

Because also while I might identify as a black woman, black women's experiences are not homogeneous.

And I also have to learn and grow and continue to immerse myself in literature so that when I am also leading and creating the best narrative of what I'm trying to do through my research.

And so I think though that's a really, really cool book that I think would be, to me, something that will be educational, but it's also a pretty light read, like not a hard read as well.

Were you reading that chapter like, whoa, this is so cool.

Yeah, I was seeing myself in every single chapter.

And so it also was easy to digest because I understood.

I was able to better comprehend the language, the text, because yes, there is very highly intelligent words because of some highly intelligent, dope black woman that wrote the book.

But also it is written by educators that are coming from a similar lens and background as myself, but it's to other black women too.

And so I was able to really understand because of the text, connected back to language and communication, all of it.

Last question, when are you going to write a book?

Oh, I don't know.

But it's funny that you asked that because someone asked me before, like, if you were to write a book, what would it be on?

I don't know what it would be on.

I don't.

I mean, you'd have to weave your story in there.

Yeah, I would definitely want to.

You know, I would want it to focus on, like, how to pick up the pieces, basically.

Come on, somebody up, pick up the pieces.

I'm reading it.

Of course, because that's what, to me, I want to create and not saying that others don't, but just real life things.

And I would want it to be for, like, my generation.

I wouldn't want it to be specific for a specific race, but I would want it to be for my generation, because I think that we are having good conversations, but we're not having those type of conversations, and there's so much more that we could be doing to normalize, like, you know, so many of us, and I don't know about you, Chris, not to speak for you, but like turning 30, I was like, oh gosh, I'm about to turn 30, but like lives are beginning in 30, dreams are starting in 30, and so I would just want to help my generation see that we can do this, you know?

And we can create our own paths, and we could throw those boxes away, because we don't have to identify within the box, you know?

Or we don't have to do it the way that our parents' generations did things.

I think that the generation that's after us is definitely showing us that, to me, they're the real go-getters in my opinion.

We got some cool stuff coming up, huh?

Well, thanks for being here.

This is what I needed.

Oh, well, thank you.

This is what I equally needed.

Oh, mutually.

This was great.

And I just appreciate all the work that you're doing, Chris, because this literally, this is the type of stuff that I want to be a part of, because you're making a difference.

Yeah, and we're going to have you back on, because whenever you were talking about your specialty, I think community is so important.

So like that, I need to read...

The black women?

Why all the black kids sit together in the cafeteria.

Yes.

I need to read that, because like community and gathering, it's the propellant for achieving your dreams and for living a fulfilled life.

And I want to know why, you know?

Yeah, and I didn't say this, but why all the black kids sit together in the cafeteria too.

And it also brings awareness to the systemic racism and barriers that are within our educational systems that are working against certain populations and impacting their ability to thrive.

And so when you think about access, it's definitely a really good read, because it can give you perspective about how can you use your privilege to help another community and beyond the black community, but for all communities that might need additional support.

All right.

Well, till next time.

Till next time.

We'll see you next time, folks.

So that's it for this week's episode of Talk to People Podcast.

Thank you for watching or listening.

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Bye.