#30 - My Mom: Opening Up To Others Saved My Life

When you go to the support group and you're reaching out and you're talking to people, you're helping other people because they hear your concerns, your fears and your strengths, your bravery.

It helps when we all get together and talk and share our concerns and what we're going through.

Hello and welcome to the Talk to People Podcast, a weekly podcast where Sunny and I, here's Sunny, he's on the screen currently, get to sit down with a variety of people to talk about how they got from where they were to where they are now and how they used relationships, conversations and community to build a better life.

This week, I'm gonna be talking to one of my favorite people of all time and that's my mom.

Now, my mom has been going through a lot this past year and frankly, it's been really hard to produce a podcast that relies on creativity and having a positive sentiment whenever you're dealing with cancer.

We talk about a lot, including the importance of a support group, why it means so much to belong, how alcoholism, schizophrenia, cancer can all be scary words, but whenever you get to wrap words around them and be in relationships, it makes those scary experiences a little more bearable.

This is something that's been really important to me and that has been we all deal with crap and I mean a ton of crap.

Some people deal with a lot more than others, yet at the end of the day, if you have good people to walk through it with, it's gonna be a lot less crappy.

I'm just super thankful that, God gave me the drive to want to be successful in having relationships and belonging to my support groups and belonging to my family and it wasn't easy.

Before we hop into this episode, I just want to say thank you for listening.

It has been a lot of fun to run this podcast and I'm excited for the future of it.

I know in this particular episode, my mom and I talk a lot about hard things, yet I always talk to people about cancer and it seems like it affects a lot more than it doesn't.

So what better way to talk about it than with someone who's dealing with it?

Thanks you all and we'll hop into the episode.

All right, you are officially live in the living room studio, no longer the dining room studio.

You are a VIP.

I'm so glad to belong in the VIP club.

You definitely belong in the VIP club.

And whenever I was thinking about, we're hosting you in Kansas this week, right?

Annie and I, the queen of hospitality, Annie herself.

And when I was thinking about that, I was like, I want to have something a bit more intimate rather than the dining room studio.

Now we love the dining room studio, right?

Yes, that's where you started.

That's where we started and we'll go back to it.

But we also have the living room studio and I'm an amateur when it comes to this stuff.

So you've been quite gracious with your patience as I toil around.

But how has your day been?

My day's been really good.

Annie hosted a really nice breakfast for us and I got some sketching in.

And I went to lunch with you and Annie at Mama's and we had tostadas and guacamole and chips.

We love Mama's.

So how has your year been?

My year has been good.

I've really felt the love for my family.

I have had a change in my journey of cancer.

I found out this year that the cancer that I've been battling for about 12 years had mastitis to my bones.

And so, I've reached out to God and Jesus Christ, my hope and my Savior, and he's really helped me face this news with loads of support and friends and prayers, and I really have to say that I've taken the bad news and I have to say I'm blessed.

Yeah.

So, some people are hearing that, you saying that you have cancer that's metastasized to your bone, and then you're saying you're blessed, and they may be like, what?

Yeah, thank you, God, for cancer, yeah.

Yeah, that can't be sound confusing, but it's the norm.

I mean, you know, when you hear that word, it's normal for you to get afraid, and it's normal for people to, you know, just wanna turn the channel, or just not face the challenge of the news.

How would you respond to someone who said, if God were real, then he would cure you of your cancer?

Well, God is real, and I do believe in healing, and I do believe he does heal people with cancer.

Yet, God's, his ways are not like our ways.

He doesn't think the way we think.

We think God is like magic, and really, he's not magic.

He's majestic, and he takes different circumstances that we're in, and he makes them, he makes them real, like a journey to get, to be a better person.

So I know that whenever I heard the news, I was pretty sad.

What was your thought process whenever you had gone to the emergency room and they told you, hey, we think that you have cancer, and it's in your skull?

Yes.

Well, my thought process was, I didn't want anybody to know.

I didn't want anybody to know.

I didn't want my family to have to go through the fear of cancer, the fears of it.

And for me, it was easy to minimize what was going on.

Yeah, that makes sense.

And I can't imagine how you felt because you had had a headache for a while and you weren't feeling well for months, really.

Really, did you think you were just tired from work?

Well, I really felt like I wasn't feeling good and I needed to take some time off for me and really go to the doctor and find out what I needed to do to take care of myself.

And that's what I did.

I was able to leave graciously from my job and I started going to the doctor.

But yeah, it was scary at first because I did not want to, really didn't have time.

I really felt I don't have time for this.

I've got things to do.

Yeah, you're busy.

I'm busy.

Yes.

You've got great grandkids.

Yes, yes.

I have things to respond to and then you get the news.

Now, we were talking prior to this, right?

And doing tongue twisters and trying to arrange the room and figure out exactly what goes where.

And one of the things I'd asked you was what do you want to talk about?

Because one of the questions that I always am trying to answer is what could I talk to you about that I can't get from anybody else?

And one of those light bulb moments in my head happened and something that you're able to talk about is what it's like to have cancer, yet be optimistic and be a light.

Because there are families, anytime that I talk to anybody about cancer, all of them will either say, there's somebody in my immediate family or I know someone very close to me who has either died from cancer or fought cancer or just got diagnosed with cancer.

And it's one of those things that's everywhere, yet we don't really talk about it.

And it's hard to deal with, it's kind of scary to deal with.

How do you grieve whenever someone's dealing with cancer?

Because it's not like they're still alive, you know?

And yet we know that we don't want a loved one to have cancer.

So it's like, how do we grieve from cancer?

And there's so many different questions about that.

I had, in 2011, I was diagnosed with breast cancer.

And at that time, I was fortunate to have a support group.

It wasn't a breast cancer support group.

It was a support group that I'd been going to for a few years prior cancer, and I had a really good friend there.

And she was so honest to me because I've always been the type of person that wanted to keep my life private.

And she would, when I would talk to her, she would draw those private things out of me.

And I mean, like telling somebody that I had cancer, to me that was taboo.

I mean, no, you don't tell people you're sick.

You know, I always felt like I was supposed to be the super person.

And I always wanted to belong.

So if I was sick or, you know, had any type of points about me that were negative, I wouldn't express that.

So talking with my friend, she was like, oh, well, you need to tell people that you have cancer.

And I'm like, what?

And she says, yeah.

She says, can I, you know, and she realized that I wasn't going to tell anybody.

So she asked me, can I have permission to talk to, tell people that you have cancer?

And I thought about it for a while, and I'm like, I'm like, okay.

I felt like, well, maybe she could do it better than I could.

Yeah, she, she was at one of our meetings, and she just told everybody that I had cancer, breast cancer.

And so from then on, it was, it was wonderful because people really wanted to help me.

And I was ready for that help.

And I had a mastectomy, and I had implants, and I, they didn't find any more cancer, so they put me on a hormone therapy for five years.

And I felt like, okay, my journey's done.

So I was free from cancer until 2018, and then I found a lump in my neck.

And when it was taken out, they found cancer.

So that was my, at that time, 2018, I was like a little angry.

I was angry.

It was like, okay, I thought this was over, you know?

Yeah, you thought, you had done it.

Yes, yes.

Well, you had learned what you needed to learn from cancer.

Yeah, I felt like, okay, this can't be.

I'm, you know, like I said before, I'm too busy for this.

Well, and I'm trying to think of like what happened, what was happening in my life at 2018.

I moved to North Carolina in 2017.

The summer of 2017, I am starting grad school, or I'm in my first year of grad school in 2018.

But I remember the first time, when were you first diagnosed with cancer?

In 2011.

In 2011.

Yes.

So then that means that I graduated high school in May of 2013.

So that means I would have been, do you remember the day or the month that you were diagnosed with cancer?

It was like in April.

April, okay.

So I'm in 10th grade.

Now, I remember eating cereal.

I don't know if you recall this.

Maybe you do, and maybe I wasn't even eating cereal.

But in my memory, I'm eating cereal in the dining room, at the table.

And this is when I would walk around the house shirtless, because I felt like I was Arnold Schwarzenegger, when really, when I go back and I look at the pictures of me in high school, I was quite thin, I wasn't Arnold Schwarzenegger.

But I remember sitting at the dining room table shirtless, and I have a bowl of cereal, and you tell me that you want to talk to me.

So I'm like, sure.

And I remember you telling me that you had cancer, and I started crying.

And it was a bad experience.

Now, you had mentioned you didn't want to talk to other people about it because you didn't want your family to have to deal with that.

How does someone navigate that?

Because you need to tell people, but then whenever you do tell people, you make them cry.

And that probably feels terrible.

But like, as I'm saying this, I have to note, the reason I was crying wasn't because I was mad at you, but it was an indication that I loved you and I had love for you.

And in the moment, you envision everything that's associated with that, dying, negative, like it reducing the quality of your life, not being able to be there for key moments, like all of these different things.

Sunny, our therapy dog, is approaching us now that we are talking about feeling sad.

But what's your thoughts on that?

How does one navigate that?

Because this whole thing's about talking to people, yet it can be hard to talk to people whenever the news isn't cheerful.

Right, and I know the key to getting through the cancer was talking to people.

Even though my natural senses didn't want to tell anybody, I did have my good friend that helped me in 2011, and I had good doctors, a good primary doctor, and I had good surgeons, and I had a good oncologist.

And I was able to, they were able to navigate me through the journey that I was going through.

And I remember I was working at the time, and I was working in a private dining, with a private dining company.

And the chef that I was working for, he came up to me and he's like, is there something you need to talk to me about?

And I'm like, well, no.

But he obviously was picking up that something was bothering me, and he wanted to know what it was.

How do you think that is?

I don't know.

Do you think he could just tell you, you carried it into work emotionally?

Yeah, I think he did, because I had worked for him a long time.

So he knew you had a cheery disposition typically, and lately you didn't.

Right.

He knew me as a person and a friend, coworker.

And I just like, oh, I'm fine, you know, there's nothing wrong.

But he says, you really need to talk to me.

And that's when I told him, I said, yeah, they found cancer.

The cancer that came back and they found it in my neck.

What did he say?

And I don't know.

It was almost like there was like a relief that came over him.

You know, like, okay.

I'm not crazy.

Yeah, it was like his response was, you know, I whatever you need help with, just let me know.

And and he was, you know, he helped me with HR whenever I, you know, needed days off and needed to go to the doctors.

And so I was fortunate there too.

And I wanted to go to a breast cancer support group at that time, but I really wasn't ready, wasn't quite ready.

I knew they were there, but it just wasn't at the time.

I wasn't ready.

So what made you think you weren't ready?

Well, I was just busy.

And I knew that those the support group was a good thing.

And I thought, well, one of these days I'm going to get involved.

Yeah, I think you really have to be ready.

And just almost hit bottom to get support sometimes.

Yeah.

Was there something that happened that made you be like, I'm ready?

Because you had already been hit by the truck of a cancer diagnosis.

So you already knew that you had cancer.

You knew that there was a support group, but you weren't ready for it.

What took place to make you ready for it?

Well, this was like 2018, 2019.

I had already gone through chemotherapy, chemotherapy meds.

And I had done really well on them.

And so they stopped them, and they said that cancer is in remission now, and so we're going to just watch it.

And so I was like, all right, you know, I can go on with life, and I did.

I went to your graduation when you got your masters.

You made a big trek to North Carolina.

Yeah, I made the big trek to North Carolina.

You took the plane, the train, the automobile, seriously, trains, planes, automobiles.

You took all three?

And you sat by the beach?

Yeah.

I really enjoyed it.

And that was a blessing.

That was really a blessing to be able to meet Annie and to be there at Wake Forest and see you graduate.

When I got back, pretty much soon after that, COVID hit.

And again, you know, feeling resilient, not really even feeling like it was that hard.

Yeah.

It was, with God, everything's possible.

In 2022, in April, I had felt a lump.

And I had it checked out by my breast surgeon, and we were talking, and really good doctor.

We were talking about my cancer, and I told him how it mastized to my neck in 2018.

He looked at me and he says, Kim, he says, you're a breast cancer survivor.

And I looked at him like, I'm at breast cancer.

I really never had thought of it as seriously as he was telling me.

I mean, he was looking at me, he says, Kim, you're a breast cancer survivor.

And I'm like, you know, that's the first time somebody's ever told me that.

You know, everybody's watched me, but nobody's ever really said, hey, you know, you're a survivor.

So that really hit me.

For some reason, that really hit me.

And we had had a C scan, and they had found cancer in the rib.

But somehow there was a mistake, and the onychologist told me that it wasn't cancer in the rib.

What'd she say it was?

It was a fracture, they said.

It was a fracture.

So I was like, well, here I go again.

Because one physician told you, hey, it's cancer.

But then later on, the oncologist called you and said, hey, it's a fracture.

And then it's like, we get to breathe.

And I'm in the Charlotte airport.

Behind me, I have the moving walkway, sitting in a white rocking chair in front of a store that I wouldn't shop at.

But they sell suits to people, if they want to buy a suit in the airport, then that's why they're there.

And you had called me and told me that.

And I was so happy and grateful.

I went to the little gas station, even though it's an airport, no gas, the convenience shop.

And I got a Hershey's chocolate milk chocolate with almonds bar.

And I ate that in celebration.

I wanted to get a Shake Shack milkshake, but the line was so long.

And I waited through the whole entire line.

I got to the desk and they told me, we're not doing milkshakes right now.

I was like, you're Shake Shack, you know.

So I had a almond milk chocolate bar, sitting down, eating that while celebrating the news that you actually just had a fractured rib.

Praise God.

I remember you sending me the picture of the candy bar.

Yes, keep going.

So anyway, now I can get back to where I was, where, you know, I was...

They found this cancer in the scalp.

And...

Because this was big news for you, because this whole time it was a fracture.

What do you mean I got cancer in my scalp?

Yes.

And so then there was a series of tests, scans, and it was just another time of, okay, God, I'm gonna do this.

We're gonna get through this again.

It was really, you know, I really appreciate your support because I remember you came to me and helped me with some medical business issues.

And I was grateful that you were talking to us about it.

Yeah.

And I find myself mimicking that idea of, let's keep it private with some of the stuff that I go through.

So whenever I see you, I know it can be difficult for you to open up, particularly with bad news, yet you were letting us in.

And I got to drive to Oklahoma, and I got to be there for you.

And we have our support systems.

It's the family.

And I thankfully had a great support system in Oklahoma, like friends, that let me stay at their house, right?

And be there with you.

And I do recall you had just left your work, so you didn't have insurance.

So we had to figure that.

And then there was the drama with the oncologist who said it's a fractured rib.

And then a year later, it's actually severe cancer.

So navigating all of that.

And that was so tough.

But I remember driving down to Oklahoma and being like, oh man, is she about to die this weekend?

You know, thinking thoughts like, and we didn't have any clarity though.

We didn't have any answers.

We just had a diagnosis.

We really didn't even have a diagnosis, right?

Like we had a, yeah, this is what you have, but we didn't, you know, staging hadn't been done.

We didn't know anything like that.

So it was just a pool of uncertainty.

Yet we knew it wasn't a good pool.

And in my head, it's me going through all of the potential outcomes and how severe they could be.

So sitting there with you and crying and thinking about like, oh man, that is something you don't forget.

It's a journey, God's been with you through this, teaching you.

And he's been with you, and it's funny because it's not even, this is the weird thing about life.

Whenever we deal with terrible things in our life, we don't want to tell people, yet we should.

And then oftentimes whenever we tell people, we feel like we need to console them because we feel like we burden them with bad news.

When really, we are the ones who actually receive the bad news because it's happening to us, we need comfort, yet we prevent ourselves from actually receiving comfort because we so avoid feeling as if we're burdening someone else with the truth.

And it's not like we're lying, you know, you weren't lying like, oh no, this thing popped up.

Oh, just kidding, it's gonna go away.

But it's probably in that moment, tempting.

Like, would you ever imagine not telling anybody because it would be easier to not have to deal with like that social anxiety or that nobody has to know?

Oh yeah, I'm definitely, I was definitely tempted because I don't like to be the bearer of bad news.

And, but I also have learned that you're as sick as your secrets.

And yeah, I've learned that being lonely and with your secrets is not healthy.

So that's when I decided to join a breast cancer support group.

I remember going there and they were so kind.

They were so welcoming.

And, and I thought, well, you know what?

I want to belong here.

And it was hard at first because a lot of the ladies, they knew their diagnosis is they knew exactly what was going on and the medical terminology.

And, and I was basically, oh, well I have cancer, breast cancer, you know, I really hadn't focused on the medical terminology or the stages or, but I decided, you know what?

I'm going to hang in there.

And they were really, really kind to me.

I kept on going and, and I really hadn't met anybody with mystetic breast cancer.

And I remember going to the, they had a Christmas party, all of us, we all got together and we were talking.

And I started talking to this young lady that was right beside me, young lady.

We were talking and she told me that of her mystetic breast cancer diagnosis.

And I'm like, oh, well, I have that too, mystetic breast cancer.

And she says, oh, well, we have a mystetic breast cancer support group.

So I was able to start going to that and just being able to listen to other ladies.

And when you go to the support group and you're reaching out and you're talking to people, you're helping other people because they hear your concerns, your fears and your strengths, your bravery.

It helps when we all get together and talk and share our concerns and what we're going through.

And I'm thinking, wow, if that lady can do this, if she can go through all that treatment, maybe I can, you know?

Maybe I can do the radiation and the chemotherapy and face losing my hair and all the side effects that go with it, the chemotherapy and radiation, yeah.

And whenever I reach out to them, they're always willing to say, hey, oh, well, it's good to hear from you and let's get together and talk.

And so it's been good for me because it's brought me out of myself.

I'm thankful that I have my God and my family through this.

And you know, God cares, he knows how to care for the ones, for his children.

He knows how to care for them.

So, you know, I can, when I start worrying about, oh, well, what are people gonna think?

You know, I can just pray for those people and just go on with my life, you know.

Some people can't accept the diagnosis of cancer.

Some people choose to turn their back.

Some people choose to even in their own lives because it's hard for them to face.

But you know, I decided I'm gonna choose life.

Praise God.

Yeah.

Something struck me that you said, whenever you're in that support group, you said that you opening up helped the other people because they got to hear you and they got to be like, oh man, I'm not the only one who's going through this.

And if we don't think about that, oftentimes we think if we open up, then we are making other people work.

They have to listen to us.

I don't know if you ever said this, but sorry, sorry you have to listen to all of this.

But that process of showing up to a support group and sharing what we are dealing with, it helps other people.

And I'm really glad you did that because you showcased to me the power of getting a group whenever you need to walk through something.

I haven't touched much on that in this podcast.

And all this is number 30.

Shout out Ms.

30, Steph Curry with the 30.

And we haven't talked much about that.

We talked a lot about mental illness whenever I had Rick Kagan on.

You listen to that and you are also quite knowledgeable, as far as mental health support groups go.

But this idea, we need people in our lives regardless.

If you want to overcome an addiction, if you want to improve your life, if you want to have behavior modification, having people around you are going to help you get that energy, help you maintain drive, and help you not quit.

In addition to that, if you are approached or approached is too gentle of a word, if you are brought in the middle of what should be a nice season, completely shaken with something like a cancer diagnosis, then you also need a support group.

And you showcased to me the importance of that group.

Because ever since I was a kid, you've always been going to support groups, right?

Yeah, there's power in people, in groups of people.

There's power in groups of people, amen.

So how did that start?

What was the first support group for you?

My first support group was Al-anonour.

It's a group that supports families of alcoholics.

They're families and friends of alcoholics.

And there was alcoholism, and there's alcoholism in my family, and it was affecting me, so I started to go.

And it was another journey of learning to belong.

Because I really didn't want to be there, because I wanted to be busy.

I didn't want to be sitting around a table.

But there was a lot to be learned in the support groups that people give you time to talk.

They take a few moments to listen to you.

And there's so much power when somebody takes the time to listen to you, to talk, and there's no judgment.

It was no judgment zone.

And so experiencing that support that I got from Al-anonour, I realized that being around people with like the same problems or the same issues, there's a strength there.

You said that you were too busy to be in the support group because to you, it probably seemed like a waste of time, right?

Right.

Like why sit around this table and talk to these people whenever I could be working for money or going to the park with my kid or planting something in my garden that will be able to see blossom and then I can sketch it later.

Right.

I'm glad you said that because a lot of people would agree with you.

It is a waste of time.

We're just going to sit around a table in a climate controlled room and talk about the same stuff for an hour, right?

And do this week in and week out.

What's the point?

Why do that?

And the challenge is how do I, I say I, it's not my job, but I ask myself this.

How do I reveal to them the power and the importance of talking to people?

You know, the power and the importance of being in that support group.

Like, what could, what, what could we do?

What would you tell the person who was in your shoes prior to you joining the support group?

Who's saying to you, it's just a waste of my time.

Why would I join this group?

I think I would share with them my story.

I would try to connect with them in what they said, you know, why they came.

Why they showed up in the first place.

Why they showed up in the first place.

And, and if I had a similarity, a time in my life that was similar, I would bring that up.

Yeah.

And say, hey, this is, this is what happened to me.

This is, this is why I go.

If you could just try it, like five more times, just come back five more times and, and see if, if it helps you, because it's really helped me a lot.

I have a better, I get along better with my family members.

I take better care of myself.

You know, with Al-anonour, you would always say the serenity prayer at the end.

Yeah, yeah.

Do you have it memorized?

Could you say it?

It's a prayer.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

That always wakes me up whenever I say the serenity prayer, because it reminds me there's, there's things I cannot change.

And I've spent so much energy in trying to change things that I cannot change, and people that I cannot change.

And, and, but slowly God has given me the wisdom to change the things I can, which is me.

I can change myself.

I can change the way I look at life, and I can develop a piece about the things I have.

That's one of the main principles of Al-anonour, right?

Yes.

Is you can't change them, but you can change you.

Right.

Have you been able to tell that that's the truth?

That is the truth.

Being able to not worry about your loved one could be your son, your spouse, your grandmother, being able to let them go and live their life the way, you know, it's their journey.

It's not yours.

Their journey is not mine to try to change.

The serenity comes when you're like, okay, let that person go, trust God, pray for them.

And I know it sounds really selfish.

It sounds like you're giving up, but you're not.

You're just giving them over to, you know, your higher power, which I choose to call God.

And you're giving them over to somebody who has power to help them through their journey and giving yourself space to grow and be a better person.

And when you become a better person, that's when you're able to be an example of joy and happiness to others.

So I remember whenever I was a little boy and you would go to Al-anonour, which is for families and friends of alcoholics, you would be in the meeting and then I'd be playing at the playground across the street, right?

Or I'd be with my older brother and we'd be playing around.

But sometimes I'd sit in and I recall the chips, right?

Yes, the birthday chips.

The birthday chips.

So I know that for AA, Alcoholics Anonymous, they also have chips to celebrate sobriety, right?

So what are the chips for Al-anonour?

Is that to celebrate showing up and being a part of the support group?

Yes, that's where we get our sobriety, is we show up and we keep coming back and we keep what we call working the program, the 12 steps, and the same 12 steps that the AAs use.

We keep coming back and keeping our serenity.

We're working, that's our sobriety is our serenity.

Yeah.

That is so insightful.

Showing up, I wish we had chips for just about the majority of our social structures.

Like, hey, you get a chip for showing up to morning coffee for a year, because it's hard and we don't want to all the time, right?

Right.

So getting that chip and then also with Al-anonour, when you show up, you get a sponsor just like AA.

Right.

What's the power of a sponsor in your mind?

It's great.

It's great to be able to have somebody that you can talk to that doesn't judge you for your life experiences.

And a lot of times the sponsor you have has gone through the same things you have, just maybe at a different level or a different time of life.

They have wisdom and a lot of things that we go through are mostly human being life issues.

Maybe sometimes the sponsor will say, well, when I went through that, I did so and so.

And they don't really tell you what to do.

They just give you peace about that what you're going through is not fatal, you know?

It's something you're learning and you're going through, and you may need help.

You may need to ask help.

You may need to pray to your higher power, which I call God, to help you in that situation.

And you might wanna talk to your sponsor and say, oh, well, I feel like hitting so-and-so in the face, you know?

And that's the best time to have a sponsor is, you have this outlet where when you have those times when you wanna act out, you wanna try to fix it, prove things.

And sometimes the way we wanna fix things is not good.

And so that's what a sponsor's for, is you call them at that time of need and say, hey, I feel like hitting this person in the face.

And your sponsor can listen to you and talk to you about it and give you some ideas and hopefully tell you, oh, that's not really a good idea.

I feel like one of your sponsors may have been like, I'm gonna go grab you a glove, then let me go get you a boxing glove.

I'll be over there in a second.

I wanna watch you hit him.

What's it like being in a family with alcoholism?

Well, it is scary.

The disease is baffling.

It starts out very simple and innocent, but it tears down trust, and it causes fear, and you want stability, and there's no stability, especially when the alcoholism is full steam ahead, when the drinker drinks too much, and that's all that counts.

Sometimes it gets to a point where the family is not, it's just neglected.

When there's neglect in the family, that's when it really hurts.

It hurts the children.

It can become very violent.

A lot of our families in our country, this wonderful country we live in, are affected by the disease of alcoholism, and so I am so thankful that we do have Al-anonour and AA available because it is, there is a need out there.

And that's why I keep on going because there's so many young ladies.

Like I was, when I was in need that, you know, like I would get up in the morning after a huge fight with the alcoholic that evening before, and I would just be exhausted.

My brain would be like, I felt like I was the one that was drinking.

And yeah, I had a hangover.

And I want to be there for those, for those ladies that are going through that.

And they are, you know, and they come, you know, they find out about Al-anonour, they come and I want to be there to help them.

And you mentioned it being a disease.

Now some people may hear that and be like, it's just a behavior and alcoholism would be too much of the behavior.

So all I need to do is modify my behavior, not drink as much, and then I'll be good.

I don't have a disease.

Well, it is, it has been proven to be a disease and you can get help from your insurance.

There's rehabs and counseling you can get from.

Like the insurance company classifies it as a disease.

Yes, yes, it's classified as a disease and it is an allergy.

There's some people that are allergic to alcohol and they start drinking and they don't stop.

And it's more than just being able to tell your brain.

Stop, it's more than that.

It's, psychiatrists can't really figure it all out.

They don't have it figured out.

But it is a progressive disease.

It just gets worse and worse if it's not treated.

Yeah.

Would you say AA is the best form to treat alcoholism?

Like the 12-step program?

I can't say that.

I can't say that it is.

But I can say that it is very.

Beneficial.

And I have seen a lot of people, families, couples, benefit from the programs of AA.

Me too.

And I've heard a lot about it too.

And I've heard about, you know, Dax Shepard?

He's the, he's an actor.

He has a podcast and he is a big fan of the 12-step program because he was an addict and now has really valued sobriety and he talks a lot about it.

And he was talking about research on his podcast that said the 12-step program compared to any other like program is the most, has the best results.

Now it's not 100%, right?

But the act of showing up, being a part of community, being honest with yourself and then working through that 12-step structure, there's something there.

You know, I think there's a reason why we have chapters in every country in the world.

I don't know about every country, but the majority of countries, every state in the world, basically every city, is like getting that group, getting that structure and going through that program with your higher power and it means so much.

And you talking about the other women, younger women who may be 22 years old and then going through something and they don't have anybody and then you show up to the meeting and then they have you.

Right.

How does that make you feel?

It makes me feel great to be able to be available to help somebody in that time of need and just they're out there.

You go to your, look it up online, Al-anonour, and you can find a meeting close to you and give it a try if you're, you know, if you have, you know, a boyfriend that drinks too much or a mom that, you know, has a problem with drinking.

Anybody in your family that has a problem with drinking, you are affected by it even though you don't wanna be.

If you live with that person, if you love that person, you are affected by it.

And I saw men there too, right?

Yes.

Oh, yeah.

Male, female.

Older, younger.

Rich, poor.

Everybody.

Everybody, yeah.

It's non-discriminatory.

Right.

And addiction doesn't care either.

It doesn't care how much money you have, what race you are, whether or not you live on that side of the street or this side of the street.

Right.

It's like, hey, who's up next?

Right.

Right.

The other support group you go a lot to, NAMI.

Yes, yes.

Yeah, and the support group I went to with NAMI was another blessing because I have a son with schizophrenia and when he was becoming sick, wow, I was so confused.

I didn't know what to do.

And being able to go to a support group and talk to people, there was people there that had sons with schizophrenia, daughters with depression, people in the family that were bipolar.

And we all got together and talked about, well, talked about our, why we were there and then the leader would give us different resources that she knew about.

She would lead us to different resources.

Like some people are looking for shelter.

Some people are looking for psychiatrists.

Some people are looking for what to do.

What next to do.

Yeah, I got a lot of, I still get a lot of support from NAMI.

Me too.

Even moving to Kansas, I was able to connect with people who are part of the local NAMI chapter, National Alliance on Mental Illness.

They have connections, which is people who are struggling with mental illness, and then family to family, which is families with someone struggling with mental illness.

So, the different types of groups, and it's just the consistent theme in all of this is groups.

Yeah, they have groups for veterans.

Veterans?

Yeah, front line, I think it's called front line workers, a support group for them that.

What was that like?

I know I have my experience, but you're talking about your son having schizophrenia.

So that'd be my brother, right?

And I remember going through some of that, and also not having a clue of what was going on, and seeing the stress it put on you and dad, like what do we do?

And you all handled it differently, right?

Right.

You had your support groups, and I think he puts a lot on him to try and figure everything out.

But with that, you can't really screw in some, like tape something up or prop something up, and then it's fixed like a car, right?

You can't do that.

And we were trying to find a fix.

It was tough.

Like I remember just watching you all have a really hard time.

Yeah.

What was that like?

Well, it was really hard.

When I started the support group, I took classes and became educated.

And the fact that you just, when somebody's mentally ill, you know, sometimes people think, oh, well, just go get a job and, and, you know, start working and you'll start feeling better, or, you know, get a hobby or, you know, people want to minimize.

And it's just because you want to, it's just like, you feel like it's the only way, just, you know, hide this and get it, you know, get a job and, or find a hobby, just get busy and, and you'll start feeling better.

And, and I saw that with my, I saw my husband.

I mean, he felt like that was the answer and, and it wasn't working and, and his frustration.

It wasn't, it wasn't easy.

It was very hard for him.

Yet, me going to support groups, I was able to, some of it was able to trickle on him.

He was able to see for my example that.

Yeah, he would get the residual effect.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

And I feel like that is probably the truth for a lot of families.

Right.

Is one person in the family will go do something and then that person comes back to the home with the language and with the concepts and with the knowledge and with the strategies of what to do.

And the other person may not even be trying to hear what's going on, but they will.

And it's a good encouragement for people who are like, should I go to this thing alone?

Will it change what's happening in my family if I'm the only one who goes?

I think hearing you say that is a good reminder.

Yeah, it'd be best if everybody shows up, but if you show up, you're still gonna be able to help your family out.

Right, yeah.

Which you do, you're the boss at that.

Because I went with you to a couple of meetings, but for the most part, I wasn't there, right?

And you're still doing it.

You're still showing up.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm, that's one of your superpowers.

Still talking to people.

Yeah, right.

There's a reason why I'm here sitting, talking to a whole bunch of different people.

And one of the large reasons is because you do it, and you do it so well, right?

Like, schizophrenia is a scary thing, and there is no golden formula for what to do about it, how to talk about it, how to process it.

Cancer, scary thing.

There is no formula for what to do, how to talk about it, how to process it.

Alcoholism, scary thing.

Like, all these things are scary things, and whenever we run into the scary things, we don't know what to do about them.

But there is one thing that we can do, and that's meet with people about them, right?

Yeah.

I feel like a broken record saying that over and over again, but it is just so apparent to me, and I hope that people who listen to this, if they're considering going to support group for something, that we push the needle a little more towards the show up.

Just try it.

Just go a few times.

A few times.

Or five or six times.

Five or six times.

Give it a chance.

I like how you say five or six times, because to some people that's probably like, oh my gosh, that's so much, you know?

But that would be ideal.

Just show up five or six times, because if you just show up once, then that one person may show up, but who doesn't show up?

You have to show up a few times, that way you can figure out the group dynamics, and then you can figure out whether or not you're truly a good fit.

Right.

Yeah.

So you're on the podcast.

You've been listening to all of the podcasts.

I have.

You're one of the biggest fans.

I am.

So let's talk about it.

What have you thought about the podcast so far?

Well, it's great.

I'm proud of you.

It's much needed.

People reaching out to others, we need each other in our society.

It's just becoming so, well, it's causing us to be so recluse and there's so many things to focus on besides each other, our relationships.

It takes us away from having true relationships.

Yeah.

What's been your favorite episode so far?

Okay, I'm gonna have to think about that one.

I really like the guy that sold snacks.

Oh, Chiantay?

Yeah.

Yeah.

At school.

What'd you like about that?

I really, I really respected his, I guess his entrepreneurs.

You had the entrepreneurship?

Yeah, yeah.

The drive he had.

Yes, to achieve his goals and not be imprisoned by the fears of poverty and reaching out, you know, using what he had to achieve.

And it was funny because he was selling so many snacks that the school started getting onto him because people weren't going to the vending machines.

And the school would make their money from the vending machines.

So they said, we need to put a kibosh on this guy and his snack business.

So then he started showing up to school even earlier.

That way he can circumvent the school from shutting down a snack business.

But he is an inspirational individual.

Yes.

So what's something you've always wanted to talk about on the podcast?

I know you mentioned belonging.

Yes.

The power of belonging.

Yeah.

I'm just super thankful that, you know, God gave me the drive to want to be successful in having relationships and belonging to my support groups and belonging to my family.

And it wasn't easy.

It was not easy because I came from a family of where I didn't belong.

Why didn't you belong in your family?

I was adopted and I was from a family that was torn apart by alcoholism and divorce.

And my mother was a single mom, and she really didn't have the time to give me the self-esteem, those character building traits.

She was so busy trying to survive and help us, feed us.

And just dealing with her own issues, there was a lot of anger in her life.

And so I carried that with me for a long time, trying to belong, and hanging around with the wrong crowd, and having an attitude, that angry attitude.

It took a while for me to learn that I can belong.

I can have a family.

I can belong to my family.

I can belong to my community and have a positive role.

Did you want to go find your biological family whenever you were younger?

Yeah, I've always wondered about my biological family.

I am an artist at heart, and I always think about, well, what kind of artwork did they do?

Because I know this didn't come out of thin air.

I know that there was a...

It's in the genes.

And so, you know, that's another thing on my bucket list, is, you know, to find out more about my biological family and the artwork of the past.

And yeah, it's something to look forward to.

Wow.

What do you want to eat for dinner?

Oh, man, something with protein.

Protein.

Yeah, I'm on the salad and protein.

Because dealing with cancer right now, do you feel like you need to eat a ton of protein?

Because you're low on energy, you feel?

I have just, the doctor took me off some medication that just really my body did not like.

And so I'm still dealing with some blood counts that are low, which causes fatigue.

And so the protein, the beef and the spinach and the kale and the grains, all the, it's good for healing.

I like burgers.

Yeah.

Hey, you're from Oklahoma.

Yeah.

You got to get yourself a good burger, right?

Exactly.

It's a culture.

It's a culture.

Same thing here in Kansas.

We love a good burger.

But I feel like there's a million and one things that I want to talk to you about.

And at the same time, what's the best thing to talk about?

There's this thing I was listening to about a farmer's market, and they had to jam stand.

So this stand, one day, they had 30 different types of jam there.

Apricot, blackberry, blueberry, jalapeno, spinach, like all of this stuff.

And then the next day, they only had four choices.

They had the grape, the strawberry, the peach, and the apricot.

And whenever they only had four choices, they sold so much more than when they had 30 choices.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

And there's studies about people who are in the aisle at the grocery store.

And if there's 30 options of toothpaste compared to three, they actually have a worse experience when there's 30 than when there's three, because we have to in our head trying to figure out, should I get the Blackberry Jam or should I get the Triple Berry Jam?

We have the FOMO.

If we get this, then maybe we'll miss out on this.

And then we also have the buyer's remorse or buyer's regret.

Like, dang it, I shouldn't have bought that.

I should have bought this.

When there's very few options, we don't have that.

And whenever I'm sitting down and talking with you, there's a million things to talk about.

So it's like trying to figure out what the best thing to talk about is.

And I've already kind of resolved in my head that I may not find the best thing because I don't know what the best thing is.

But what I do know is I'm really grateful to have you here, that you have been such a great example for me.

And I think about you often and it's a dream come true to be able to have you on the podcast that you have largely inspired.

And one of my motivations for creating the podcast is knowing that as you are dealing with adversity and sadness and feelings of stress and being overwhelmed and helplessness, if you're getting cancer treatment, if you are sitting down and feeling low and fatigue, there's one thing that you don't have to have a lot of energy to do and it can keep your mind busy and that's listen to a podcast.

So you are one of my motivations to be like, hey, you better get a podcast up, you know, and you need to make the last one.

Even if it's me.

You can go listen to yourself.

Do you think you'll listen to yourself?

Yeah.

Good.

Good.

That's great.

I'm looking forward to your podcast with me.

Yeah.

It's going to sound so good.

I get nervous listening to the podcast that I'm a guest on.

I don't have that hard of a time whenever I listen to the podcast I'm creating, but we were listening to that podcast in the car the other day and I was nervous starting it.

Oh, man.

Because I'm much more critical of the way I sound whenever I'm a guest compared to whenever I'm hosting.

So I'm proud of you.

Oh, thank you.

For being like, yeah, I'm going to check it out.

I'm excited.

I'm proud of that.

But you are one of the biggest inspirations for the podcast.

So thank you.

I'm so glad I could be here.

And I love how you draw out the depths of my heart.

They're beautiful, you know.

We got to get in there.

We got to bring them to the front more often.

Breaking news, front news of the newspaper.

Your family loves you.

We're very proud of you.

And we are going to be there for you.

OK.

That's great.

And I love you.

That's great to hear.

Thank you.

You bet.

All right.

Well, how do you want to sign off?

Oh, love you.

And thanks everybody for listening and come back and listen as much as you can to Talk to People Podcast with Chris Miller.

Hey, well done.

Okay, folks, we'll see you next time.