#39 - Santiago Paredes: How to Find Friends After Moving to a New City

You know, yeah, it happens.

We're going to sneeze, fart and cough at the same time.

Or we're actually accidentally going to fart on a microphone.

You know, and how you accidentally fart on a microphone?

Hey, you all.

Welcome to another episode of the Talk to People Podcast.

If you haven't been here before, let me quickly say that the Talk to People Podcast is a weekly show that explores the power of social connection.

We believe that life is better when you talk to people, and when you surround yourself in conversation and relationships, then you will live a healthier life, a more full life, and a life that's resilient to stress.

This episode is one of my favorite episodes featuring a guest who's already been on the show, Mr.

Santiago Paredes.

Santiago is a friend, he's an inspiration and a natural storyteller.

And we talk about a lot, but I know this will be really helpful because we talk about something a lot of people have requested, which is, what do you do after you move cities?

How do you prevent loneliness?

How do you make friends?

How do you find community?

In addition to that, we talk about the power of vulnerability, how it can be super scary, particularly when you're just starting out a relationship.

And then he shares his story, I share my story of what it was like to move to a new town, to build a community that supports you, and then some leaps or steps that we took that have changed our lives.

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All of it helps.

Without further ado, Mr.

Santiago Paredes.

You are officially live.

Welcome to the dining room studio again.

One more time.

Take two.

You were my first, I think my first video episode.

I think so.

Ever, right?

So if you go back and you look at the footage, if you're listening right now, you can go on YouTube and look at episode 17, and the lighting looks different.

So we're still figuring all this stuff out, but it's cool to have you back on because we had some cool like vertical shorts whenever we did that last one.

And I did like the animations with the skeleton.

Yeah, I like that.

I like going from boot camp, which was cool.

And then now we get to see how it's changed.

But one thing that has changed is now we do rapid fire questions at the beginning of the podcast.

We didn't do any rapid fire questions.

We didn't do any.

We were just, we had an agenda and we're like, let's get in it.

It's the evolution of the podcast.

Yes, it is.

So I'm trying to have different segments.

That way people can, it helps people's like attention.

They will, are less likely to leave because there's like, oh, hey, I know that segment's coming up or that segment's coming up.

So I'm going to ask you a couple of Rapify questions and we'll switch off.

All right, let's do it.

What advice would you give to your younger self?

My younger self?

Oh, wow, that's not a rap.

I have to think about it.

Do I have to respond to rap?

A younger self?

I don't know.

I mean, I just don't, when I think about the past, I don't like thinking about changing anything because that's made me the person I am right now.

As far as advice, I would be like, just don't drink too much.

That's good advice.

Okay, your turn.

What is your favorite Spanish word?

Pantalones.

And let me translate, pants.

He said pants.

Pantalones or computadora.

Computadora?

What computadora?

Because of the way it comes out of my mouth, computadora, it's like computadora.

And it's so similar to computer that it's one of the easy words whenever you're first learning Spanish, and it's on like a vocab quiz.

Like what does computadora mean?

It's like, well, I think it means computer, just like refrigerator.

Refrigerador.

Yeah, very similar.

But then you have words like sacapuntas for pencil sharpener.

And it's like what?

That is completely out of the ordinary.

So that's one of my least favorite words.

How's it been a year in Lawrence?

Oh man, it's been good.

We moved because of church and because we felt like God was calling us here.

So every move, it's been a challenging year, but it's been a year of confirming that our move was the right move.

What advice would you give to someone who just moved?

Just move.

Or who's about to move.

And they're scared.

And they're scared.

I would tell them that it's okay to be scared.

It's normal to be scared.

But don't let that fear keep you from achieving what you're setting out to do.

Because I think fear, it does that.

It limits people.

And if fear is limiting you, you have to build the courage, you have to surround your people, with people that's gonna tell you that.

That it's okay to be scared, because nobody said it's okay to feel those negative thoughts.

But those negative thoughts are a warning or are a wake up call to cause, to make you step into action, to do something about it.

Their signal.

Mm-hmm, their signal.

So if somebody that's moving is like, it's okay to be scared, but build that, strengthen up, buckle up.

That just means that you're doing the right thing.

That just means that it's gonna get hard, but you gotta push through, you gotta get it done.

You remember when we were getting lunch in Seattle, and the guy said, do you know how to spell faith?

Oh yeah, I remember that.

He said R-I-S-K, cause risk, faith takes risk.

You don't know, and you go for it.

The moving process is tough.

We're about to move, but we're gonna move four or five minutes away.

Right, so it's not a big deal.

But whenever we moved from North Carolina to Kansas, I was so scared.

I'd never been to Lawrence, Kansas before.

It was in the middle of a pandemic.

No idea what we were getting into.

But at the same time, I was excited, knowing that there's this great adventure.

I was moving with Annie, this woman that I had met.

We were engaged, we were about to get married.

It was so exciting going into this chapter.

I didn't know who I was gonna meet.

I didn't know what job I was going to have, because I had quit my job too.

Complete reset.

But I know that a lot of people will move, and they're so intimidated because their community, all the people that are really good to them, they leave them behind.

Then they start to think, will I ever, there's two schools of thought.

One school of thought is, oh, I'll be able to get a new friend group easy.

So I'm going to take the $30,000 pay bump and move, and then I'll just rebuild my friend group.

And then you get there and you have the extra 30 grand, but then you realize, oh man, it's actually a lot harder than I thought to build this friend group.

So then you start to miss the friends that you had back here.

Then the other side of the house is, oh no, I'm super scared.

Everybody, whenever I moved from Oklahoma to North Carolina, I was nervous, this is funny, but I was nervous that I was gonna...

You know how you said rules to no rules, and then people go wild?

I was nervous that I was gonna go wild, and that I was gonna fall off the rocker, and I had all of these people that were pouring into me, and accountability partners, and each week I'd go to a men's group, and I was like, oh, I'm gonna go away, and I'm gonna start partying, and getting drunk, and getting high, and having a whole bunch of sex, and that didn't excite me.

That was actually like, oh.

It scared you?

It scared me.

Oh, man.

And then I move away, and I'm living by myself.

And before I moved away, the two things that I prayed for was community and leadership.

I wanted people to pour into me.

I wanted to have leaders around me, and then I wanted to have community people to live life with.

And take steps together.

And so once I did move, I got to a point to like day one, day two, Braxton, a friend of mine, he moved in with me, and then he flew back, but he helped me with that moving process.

And it's funny, I was all worried, oh no, I'm going to fall off the rocker when really I get there.

And in order to go to all the college parties, you have to know people.

People don't just invite random people to college parties.

So in my head, I thought I was going to be the hot stuff at the very jump.

And people are going to be like, oh yeah, come in.

And all the ladies are wanting to talk, and I'd have all the drugs at my fingertips.

And that stuff's expensive, and you have to buy all that.

Not like I wanted to consume any of that because I just didn't want to.

Different strokes for different folks.

Same thing with having a whole bunch of sex with random people.

I was not interested in that.

But I remember feeling really afraid.

Like, oh man, I'm gonna have to find community again.

But since my priority was to find community, the first three months, all I did was show up to places.

I showed up to different churches.

I showed up to events around campus.

I went to the games.

I went to events in my department.

And that first three month investment, I met probably 200 people out of all of that.

And out of that 200 people, there was like five or 10 of them.

I was like, oh, I want to get more time with you.

And then that five or 10 begin to be the foundation for a network that after three years grew to be hundreds of people that are incredible people.

We could go through the list and wow, wow.

And you'd get along with most of them because you're one of those in my Lawrence Foundation.

Oh wow.

Then from that foundation, then everything starts to bubble up.

So that moving process, like focusing on community.

In college, we called it the six weeks challenge.

We said, if you can last for six weeks and focus on all of the people around you and build the best relationships you can possibly build, your likelihood of getting a college degree goes through the roof.

But if you can't make the first six weeks, the majority of people who leave college leave within the first six weeks.

So it's like, if you can make it the first six weeks, build with people, then you're going to be able to make it through life.

So same thing with moving.

Yeah.

And that's good advice, you know?

That's also my voice for somebody that's moving.

Because when I moved from Ecuador to New York, I didn't know anybody.

And you know, and it's funny because when you don't go out there and commute, even though if you're not comfortable there, if you still don't do it, you'll find other people that they feel in the same way.

And then you'll commute with the people that are scared to move, and you talk to them because you just see them in a corner that are not talking to anybody.

And then you end up building a group of people that's afraid to do anything, so they don't do anything.

So, you know, so being and stepping out is hard, but it is a must.

That's a good point, though, because everybody is in that group, like Chicken Little, the sky is falling.

It's scary.

People are scary.

And then if you get all of that together, at least you have each other to hang out with.

But then if one of you leaves, it's really hard to replace the people because you're scared of the uncertainty.

Yeah, my goal is, and this is something you're really good at, we were at an event, you and I, and we were challenging each other to initiate conversation with different people.

That's why I met Luke.

Right, that's why you met Luke, who's a super cool dude.

Yeah, he was a super cool dude.

Maybe he can listen to this, but we're at this event in Washington state, and I see this guy who has a cowboy hat.

I'm like, Santiago, I bet you can't get a good conversation going with them.

No, it was, I bet you can't get him to come to our booth and take a picture in our booth.

Take a picture.

And then before I know it, I turn around and they're doing selfies and doing all these different shots.

And the guy turned out to be a really kind, easy to talk to guy who looked to be looking for, he had a group, but he was definitely looking for people to connect with.

That's the thing that I've noticed too, is whenever I go to the gym, the biggest, most intimidating guys, if you talk to them, either their voice is really high or they're actually really kind or they're socially insecure.

And it gives you this moment to be like, oh, I was intimidated by you, but now that I talk to you, I recognize we're both human.

And I think that's really important to do for a lot of other people is like, whenever you're navigating a new social setting, if you can strike up a conversation with everybody there, it's gonna give you a lot more data information about these people, and it's going to help you know that we're all more human.

We're gonna stumble on our words, we're gonna say a story that's different.

We're gonna accidentally fart while we're talking.

It happens.

Yeah, it happens.

We're gonna sneeze, fart, and cough at the same time, or we're actually accidentally gonna fart on a microphone.

How you accidentally fart on a microphone?

Is I hold up.

And then you go, whoops, I didn't mean to do that.

Yeah, but we do these social missteps and blunders, and it's just a reminder that, oh, hey, we're all human.

So next time we stumble on our words, what we can tell ourselves is, I'm reminding others that I'm human, and I'm encouraging people to step out because I can't do it perfectly, so they may as well try.

I think it's because as people, we like to portray the best version of ourselves to others.

But when you try to act and give the best version of you, it's not your real version.

Because at the end, we are all human.

We all do human mistakes that everybody does.

So when you try to paint a picture that I am a perfect person, just the fact, there's a lie within the same sentence because there's nobody that's perfect.

And just trying to show the world that you are a perfect person, it's impossible because you're not just lying to the world, you're lying to yourself.

And I think that our mistakes and our little imperfections is what makes us human.

That's what makes us unique.

That's what makes us who we are.

When did you come to that realization?

Just yesterday.

Yesterday?

No, I'm just kidding.

I think after my second divorce, when I was hitting rock bottom and I finally gave...

I started to come to church and be more connected to God.

I was like, I'm going to just be who I am, accept my mistakes, accept my errors, and be okay with it, and not build up myself with it.

Because before, I would address my mistakes and beat myself over it.

Hey, why did you get divorced?

Of course, that's dumb.

You told yourself that you were never going to do that.

Why did you do this?

Because that's so dumb.

You told yourself you were never going to do it.

Now you're doing it.

Why are you doing all these things?

And so I was beating myself up.

And the minute I started accepting it, and realized, hey, it's realizing me like, hey, that does happen.

It is human error, but you have to give yourself grace.

You have to learn how to accept those imperfections and not think that you're the perfect dad, that you're the perfect husband, that you're the perfect human being, because it's not such thing.

And once you realize that, you start accepting those things.

And that's when you start moving forward.

I think a lot of people that like to hide mistakes, they're stuck in that area where they make the mistake, because they can't move past forward.

And accepting a mistake, accepting an error, accepting something that goes against your character, it builds your character.

Because once you accept it, you move forward.

So, you know, it's very important that we accept our imperfections and learn to live with it.

What if it keeps happening?

Something we don't want to do, we keep doing it, and we're mad.

Then you give yourself grace and try it again.

The fact that you're trying is the fact that you haven't given up.

And if you keep doing it and doing it again, I mean, keep trying.

Don't give up.

The failure is when you stop trying.

And if you're still breathing, you still got another chance to keep trying again.

They say you fail when you give up.

That's the ultimate definition of failure is that.

Giving up.

No more tries.

No more tries.

I'll not even attempt to do it.

You mentioned Rock Bottom was being at your second divorce.

As a, we're both married men.

And in our brains, we know that we married our wives because we were compatible and we wanted to build a life with them.

So we're not even thinking about divorce.

We're thinking about building a marriage that will be sustainable and will go on to the future that we can bless others while blessing one another and living what we're called to live.

But there's a lot of people who get divorced.

Yet whenever we first get married, we're not even thinking about that.

What's that process like of going from, oh, I'm never going to get divorced to, oh, I got divorced?

It's disappointing.

It's hard because I never thought of it.

At that point, even though with all my mistakes and everything, life was going according to what I wanted it to be.

I wanted to be married by 25.

I want to have kids by 26.

And everything was out to plan, but I think I was in a point in my life where I was just so tired.

I was so tired of just tired that things fell apart.

And then once things fell apart, I was still tired and I didn't do anything about it.

I was still doing the same things.

I was still not taking care of myself.

And like I said, once I realized it, that slap in the face, it was like, hey, it's time to get on gear.

If you don't do it for yourself, you got to do it for your kids.

And one of the things that I also once I got divorced, I did it was I was I tried to remind myself that that was in the end, that someday I will find somebody.

And someday, like, if God allows, I would be married again.

And it's funny because what I did is my last name is Paredes, which translated to English is walls.

So I made myself like a little family tree, which is like a little brick, like a brick wall.

In the very top one, I made the Christianity little fish symbol because in my mind was I'm going to put God first.

So the top brick has to be God first because he comes first.

And then I had in the bottom of the first brick, I had two bricks.

And each in the first and put the first brick, I put my S for my the first letter of my name.

And I was like, and I'm next one, I'm going to leave it blank.

As a reminder, I'm going to remind myself that this is not the end.

It's not always just going to be me.

That for me to complete my wall, it will take time, but someday I will get to fill it.

And then the bottom bricks, I started putting my kids' names, Quinlin, Jaylin, Jocelyn, Ethan, Jasmine, and I made it a big tattoo right here on the side of my rukabag.

It's my first and only tattoo, but it's big.

It goes from the top of my chest, from the bottom of my chest all the way to half of my stomach.

And it's still empty.

I've told my wife, I was like, I got to fill it up, finish filling it up.

She's like, no, I don't do that.

I'm going to someday.

But by the minute that when I was doing it, I was like reminding myself.

So when I see it, I was like, this is not it.

Someday I'm going to fill it out.

It was just a reminder to myself to complete my family, because it's like a family tree, you know, because my last name is involved.

But I was like to complete it.

So when I would get out of the shower, I was like, get ready and I'll see it.

I was like someday.

So keep going.

You said that you wanted to keep that brick open because you wanted to tell yourself, this is not the end.

There is open area to explore, to continue to live life.

Because do you imagine when people get divorced, oftentimes they think that's the end of love.

I think that the end of love, but they get lonely.

I was very lonely at one point.

And when I did that was because I was surrounded by people.

But in my mind, I was alone.

Because nobody knew the struggles I was trying to get over.

All the struggles that I've talked about before.

All those are hiding whenever you fail.

Whenever you made a mistake, you fall on the ground.

And the ground are all the mistakes that you've ever made.

So it's hard to get up because you're surrounded by all your mistakes.

Yeah, your perspective is just how you messed up.

Yeah, how you messed up.

So once you're in the ground, like I said, you just see all the mistakes.

And that's the same thing with me.

I was like lonely because I was in the ground and I was just surrounded by all the traumas, all the mistakes I've made.

And it was really hard for me to get up because nobody knew it.

Everybody just saw what I was featuring, which is I was going to work.

I was functioning, but in the inside, I was alone.

And my drinking, my drugs and all that stuff, it was just a cry for trying to feel the void of just trying to erase all the mistakes.

So I was alone.

A lot of people that get divorced, they never get married again.

It's because failing at something and trying it again is hard, it's scary.

Because what if this ends up like the last time?

And I think it's learning from your mistakes is very important because for me, I gave myself hope, but when it was time to, I started dating again, I started to be honest from the very beginning.

I wasn't trying to paint a picture that was the perfect man.

I wasn't trying to paint a picture of like I'm the perfect boyfriend or the perfect person for everything.

I was like, look, this is all my crazy stuff.

You know, the funny question that you asked me after the other podcast was, did you wife, did anything that you said in the podcast was something that your wife didn't know?

Because it was a lot.

But my question was, I know she already knows that.

Why?

Because before we build up a relationship, I told her all my traumas, all the stuff that I've struggled with.

And I was like, hey, here's me with my mistakes.

If you want to start a relationship with me, you're not just starting a relationship with me, with me as the person, but you're starting the relationship with me and all my mistakes.

But those mistakes that weren't ruling the way I was living, those were the mistakes that all my past that was just there that brought me to the person that I was now.

And there were no dictating how I live.

They were the experience that I lived through, and I became better when I overcome them.

So when I presented myself as that, there was nothing to hide.

So nothing I could say could even surprise her.

I remember one night we was talking on the phone.

I was like, all right, so I'm telling you all this, but what is the one secret thing that you've never told anybody?

And I told her mine, and then she told me hers.

And I was like, all right.

So if this is the worst thing, if this is the best thing, it's like, can you love me after that?

Can you still talk to me tomorrow?

Is that going to drive you away?

Is that going to drive you closer?

And I think that's what me and my wife are, you know, have such a good relationship, because there's nothing that I'm trying to hide from her, and there's nothing I've hidden from her.

It's there.

So good.

Yeah.

And that gives us so much security, knowing that, oh, even after this, you still love me?

Because in the back of our heads, anytime someone says, I love you, you say, oh, but if you knew about this, I don't know.

And I know in my life that same thing applies.

Whenever we were, Annie and I were dating, there was a moment where, and I'm sure that you all had this moment, just like you just said you did, so I know you did, where you go, hey, let's talk, and let's get some shovels, and let's dig up some skeletons, and display these skeletons and say, this has happened, or this is things that I'm struggling with.

And then you all get to decide whether or not you want to move forward.

And then once you get to move forward, then it's like the open land, the open break, you get to build together, knowing that the things behind you have shaped you.

And we get really scared and fearful to do that, but whenever we think about what you just said, nobody's perfect.

So we're all jacked up some way.

We've all done dumb stuff.

So we may as well talk about it, because sharing the mistakes we've made, sharing the things that we're struggling with, gives us a lot more connection.

It lets us know that we're human.

It makes it, you know, when we're painting things, when we paint, when you paint things, oftentimes you need to get sandpaper and sand it down a little bit, because that'll make it a bit more rough and it'll allow the paint to stick better, rather than if you paint a basketball court and you don't rough it down.

Same thing in human relationships.

I was talking to somebody a while back, and it seemed like everything was perfect.

And it put me off.

It was uncomfortable, because they made a ton of money.

They were really smart.

They had a beautiful house.

They had this family that looked great.

They had multiple kids.

Beautiful family pictures.

Beautiful family pictures.

All of this stuff was there, and we were eating together, and they ate really healthy.

They had a really strict diet.

They seemed very driven.

So I asked, what is wrong?

What do you struggle with?

What is something that you wish you could do better?

Where do you feel like you aren't personally meeting the mark?

Because I need something.

I need something to stick with, because right now, it doesn't seem like we have that.

And every relationship, every connection that you have, you need to, or I say you need to, I think that we all should keep that in mind.

Because whenever we try and pretend like we're that perfect person, not only are we lying, but it makes it so much difficult for people around us to relate to us.

And it makes it so much difficult for people around us to be encouraged by us or to feel supported by us, because they know something's not being said, right?

And then you have the people who are openly transparent and vulnerable, and they lead their life by saying, hey, here are the things that I've made mistakes.

Here are things that I'm currently struggling with.

I'm trying to figure this out.

But here's what I want to be.

And if you'd like to join me along that path.

So I remember moments where Annie and I, we would like do it in chunks.

Like, hey, maybe let's talk about this.

Did you know I got a D in chemistry?

A D in chemistry.

I seem like a pretty smart guy, but just to let you know, I got a D in chemistry.

Are you still into this?

I may seem like I'm a 4.0 student, but I'm really not.

And then, did you know that, like, growing up, my family life wasn't the best?

And I saw a lot of things that I wish I hadn't seen, and I heard things that I wish I hadn't heard.

And I internalized that, and oftentimes, I feel like I'll never be able to build a successful business, because I feel like my family is always struggling financially.

Oh, man, you don't feel like you'll be able to build a successful business?

Well, that's a mental block that could potentially limit our family, because we need you to hurdle that, because we want you to build a successful business, if that's what you're called to.

Are you still into that?

And then you get to...

And it's also those moments where you could say, you know what, I'm not into that.

And I think there's freedom there.

I think there's freedom in relationships if we communicate openly.

And that's the whole purpose of dating, is to decide whether or not the calling on each of your lives aligns.

Because if you're called to go to Asia and go work in the tech sector, and I'm called to work in Lawrence, Kansas, then that's not going to be the best move.

Like, compromise, concessions, that exists.

And I think that working together in teamwork, it's for every relationship.

But I do think there's a reason why people have multiple boyfriends and girlfriends before they find their wife.

And then some people don't.

Some people, they marry the first person they meet, not meet, but date, which is cool.

But I do think that communicating openly helps that romantic relationship process, and it helps the building community process.

It does.

You know, there's an agricultural technique to improve fruit.

Like, if you have an avocado tree that's big and produces a lot of fruit, and there's an avocado tree that grows smaller but produces bigger fruit, you want to mix them up so you can have a decent size fruit that produces more.

Right?

So what they do is when the one avocado tree is young, they cut it, and they cut an incision in the side of it, and then they get one of these little branches of the other tree.

The same thing, they cut it in a way that it leaves a lot of the inside exposed.

So when both insides are exposed, you mate them together, and you seal them so there's no water that gets in it.

And then if the mates are good, then both trees will mix up and create this new tree out of this new branch that will create a desired type of fruit.

And the same thing with a relationship.

It's like you guys are two different lives.

When you expose you guys' lives and you mate them, and then once it's exposed and you mate them, it's a bigger bone where something new can grow.

So imagine like a relationship where you're just exposing them just the outside.

You will never be able to grow something new because in the inside, where it matters, you can never completely mate to create something new.

So that's how I see relationships.

It's like once you expose the inside, the hurt, the stuff that bleeds, and you're able to expose together, you're going to mate in a way that is just not superficial.

So superficial mating is internal, emotionally, personally, and physically in everything.

And that's how you can start something, a new fruit that nobody has seen yet.

How do you feel about people who would say, I don't want to know about your past, say, we're dating, right?

I don't want to know about your past, that's your past.

I just want to focus on the future.

But without noting the past, I think our failure and the future, it fails to be successful when you haven't learned from your past.

You know, I think there's a difference between digging in your past to learn from it, or digging in your past because you're still living in it.

There's a big difference in that.

And historians story history because they see how society was built so they can create a new society.

They don't study a society so they can live back in the same society.

You know, you look at your past to learn from it, not to live in it.

And I think this is a big difference.

And you have to learn your past because the past is not learned, it tends to repeat itself.

A mistake does not, when you don't learn something, a lesson, you're going to repeat that lesson, you're going to find yourself in the same place, trying to learn the same lesson all over again.

I hear this sometimes with sexual history.

Don't tell me who you slept with.

Don't tell me how many times you slept with.

Don't tell me any of that.

Because I don't want to...

You know, I just don't want to hear that.

What's your thoughts on that?

I think it's not about the person.

I think it's about why you're willing to like, hey dude, don't do that.

I don't think at that point it's about...

Because that's intimacy, you know, that's between two people.

And when you talk about other people, you bring in other people into that intimacy.

And I think it's learning each other.

When it's about intimacy, it's about learning about each other and being intimate with each other.

But you don't bring other people into that.

What you do set in it is boundaries.

You know, I...

This person used to do that and I like that.

So when I do it, it reminds that person of the other person.

So you have to talk about it because you don't want to be in that person.

And then that person just gets triggered by something.

And then you're like, oh, I didn't know what happened.

What was going on?

But if you're open about certain things that trigger you or that bring you back to some place where you were uncomfortable, then you have to talk about it because you don't want to be intimate.

And then you get slapped for no reason.

And you're like, what did I do?

That really kills the mood.

Like I said, it's not about bringing it because you want to live it.

It's bringing it because you're learning and setting boundaries about it.

I was touched this way.

And when you touch me like that, it reminds me that.

So I don't want you to do that.

And okay, I understand it and I'm going to learn from it.

And we can, you know, move past that barrier.

So in that process of communicating those boundaries, sometimes the only way we remember what boundary we had was whenever it gets crossed.

Even when you get slapped.

What happened?

So we can't be like, let's go to Starbucks, get a tea, and you and I are going to sit down and communicate everything we need to know what to do and what not to do.

Because in that moment, I may have forgotten that, oh, whenever you say that phrase to me, it makes me think about this one thing, but I didn't realize it until you said that phrase to me.

And that process of building those boundaries or communicating expectations or communicating past trauma takes a while.

Because it may not happen all at once and maybe...

And relationships, that's the beauty of relationships, like relational maintenance.

That's the most interesting part.

So people think about the pick up line, relational initiation, going up and saying, hi, you can go on YouTube and you can watch all these compilations of these guys talking to these girls, these girls talking to these guys, these guys are talking to strangers, social experiments.

And then we think about the termination of relationships, getting dumped.

Oh, you got broken up with, how did she dump you?

How did he dump her?

Man, he kicked her to the curb.

She really told him, she told him off.

And we see the stories of a person moving all the other person's stuff out in the curb.

Or he cheated on her, and she smashed his car.

You know, you hear all the stories.

But we don't really make the middle that exciting, right?

The actual maintenance.

And that's the part where that separates good relationships to great relationships, is focusing on relational maintenance.

Focusing on the communicating like that, focusing on living with vulnerability, focusing on, hey, I know we've been married for 15 years, but how do you feel about blank?

What do you think about that?

We've never actually dealt with this, even though we've been married for 22 years.

So what's your thoughts there?

Or how have you changed since year one to year 22?

And responding to all of that is the real water of relationships.

Like we're in the ocean, that's the real water that we swim through every single day.

And if we can know how to navigate that, wow.

So it makes me think of you communicating like, hey, be it an intimacy, right?

Whenever y'all are going hard in the paint in the bedroom, or be it whenever you're just living life at the dinner table.

It's good.

Even when you fail maintenance, it's not going to last.

Right?

Because you work on planes.

Yeah.

And you can build a really good plane.

But if you never maintain it...

It'll crash.

And then the crash is going to be on the news.

Right?

And it's going to be on the news whenever this beautiful plane is made.

But what's not on the news is...

All the work it takes to maintain it.

Right.

And here he goes.

He's fueling up the tank again.

You know?

Or here he goes.

He's making sure the wheel axle is good.

Or you could go on for a while about all the things that that requires.

But that's a good analogy.

That's good.

I'm full of analogies.

Agriculture analogies too, you know?

Yeah.

Like the avocado plant?

You know it.

Yeah.

So what would you say to someone if they say, Hey, I think I'm getting a divorce.

So I got a friend that recently texted me.

I was like, Hey, you know, she's moving out.

And I think it's something that when I went through it, that I didn't have, it was people that was like, Hey, it happens.

But you have to keep going.

Nobody tells you what's the next step.

They just want to appease you where you are.

So what I did to him was like, Hey dude, it happens.

But if it's going to come to an end, let it come to an end and not let it be your fault, because then you're going to blame yourself for it.

If you really want it to work, give it your all.

So if it comes to an end, you don't blame yourself that it came to an end.

And then if it comes to an end, do the best thing that you can.

Be there for your kids, be and move forward.

Don't get stuck in it.

Life has to continue on.

I was like, give it your best.

And if it comes to it, then at least it went down with it, not letting it be because you didn't try hard enough.

And once it happens, if it happens, hey, keep life continues on.

It's not the end.

You gotta keep moving on.

I feel you.

I know how it feels like.

It hurts, but it's in two steps.

Don't let it be your fault.

And then if it comes to it, then you have to move on.

You have to see past that.

Because you gotta leave that empty break on it.

Yeah.

Did you feel a lot of shame whenever you were getting divorced?

It was just...

In my mind, I became just somebody that used to stand out and always do something with other people.

I was a leader at work.

I was a leader at home.

I was a leader at church.

When I felt that, I was no longer a leader.

Leaders are people that stand out above the average.

So when that happened, I just became somebody else that was part of the average.

Just an average other person.

And I felt shameful because here I was the person that was leading, now I'm a person that's just in the middle of the crowd.

So yeah, I didn't like to talk about it.

And the more comfortable I got about it, the more average I felt like, the more I'm mixed in with everybody else.

Because here I am, another guy that just got divorced.

Just another one, another number.

You know, another one.

Like a bomb.

It challenged me as a leader because I was a leader at work.

I had my own team.

They looked out to me.

And what they could do is just be like, hey, it happens.

Here's a drink.

Drinks on me.

And it didn't help.

Nobody said like, hey, don't blame yourself.

Hey, life has to keep going.

You got to do good for you so you can be there for your kids.

You know, like I said, a lot of the times when we find people in a certain level, is they just want to make you feel good about a situation, but they never tell you what's the next step.

It's like, what's next after that?

Okay, you're trying to make me feel good about this, but what do I do next?

Yeah.

And then, you know, it's challenging.

And it didn't help to say, hey, join the club, I'll get the next round of drinks.

Yeah, it didn't help because the next morning when they weren't there, and I found myself at home, I was like, it's still there.

What's the next step?

Go back and drink again so I forget for another night.

Or start taking steps that I can be a better person, that this can build me up instead of tear me down.

How would you respond to someone who says Christians don't get divorced?

Christians are also people.

Christianity is not an excuse for us to be perfect.

It's thinking Christianity is about learning and accepting our mistakes, and thinking that, and knowing that there's a hope for us, even though we make mistakes.

I don't think I'm perfect because I'm a Christian, but I think I have hope because I'm a Christian.

I know in the church, people view divorce as a stigma.

They think, oh my gosh, can you believe they got a divorce?

That's a stereotype, right?

If you imagine the church chatter outside of it, they got a divorce.

Same thing, oh, they had a kid and they weren't married.

Can you believe that?

And it's weird congregating over or celebrating.

They call it schadenfreude, taking pleasure in what we believe is other people's missteps and talking about it, right?

It's a bit sadistic.

But in church, that happens.

People will say, they'll talk about it.

And I know this is also talked about too, like, oh, let's pray for them.

Hey, let's pray for Santiago.

He's been...

He needs help.

He needs help.

Let's pray for Chris.

He's in serious debt.

His browser history just got leaked, and it looks like the only thing he's been looking at is YouTube and porn.

There's been...

He just has seven divorces.

Like, oh my gosh, let's pray for him.

But really, they're just ragging on Chris the whole time.

You know, it's like...

A good leader covers, I think.

You know, that's the thing about a leadership.

A leadership covers, then exposes.

It doesn't expose.

I think everybody needs a leader, a person that you can confide in, and you know they're not going to judge you, look at you differently for it, but it's going to cover you and try to help you up.

Yeah.

Not just cover you or accept where you're at, and be like, oh, it happens.

But it's like, hey, it happens, but get up, you can move on from it.

And I think that there's a difference between, you know, leaders and just people that are there for the joy, for the gossip.

I mean, everybody gossips, though.

And that's what I'm saying, when it's about churches, it's like what happens when a mistake happens in church.

Church is full of people, and people make mistakes.

But church is about hope, that even though I made a mistake, I got hope, that even though I can be forgiven, you know, I think that's the main thing about it.

And if you're in a position of leadership, cover.

Cover, don't expose.

How do you cover?

You don't gossip, you don't explain it.

You hear gossip, you stop it.

But like, instead of talking about it, why don't you just pray about it?

And in your closet, you know, sometimes, and the Bible says that, sometimes you gotta just, it's not about exposing, you know, when they used to say that, the religious leaders would like put sackcloth in to mourn.

It's because everybody, they wanted everybody to know that he was mourning.

But when you are home, and you go into your closet, and you pray to God, hey, I got this thing, God, will you please help me with it?

And it becomes more personally, a personal relationship, than just I want everybody to see that I'm hurting.

Because that doesn't help anybody.

If it's not building up, you know, don't say it.

Before you spread a rumor, if it's not going to build something up, what's the point?

Because are you building up or are you tearing down?

I think leaders build up, they don't tear down.

Builders, leaders hold things together, they don't separate things.

And I think that's what Jesus was trying to do at the end.

He was trying to bring all the people together and let them know that they were all part of the same world, created by the same God.

Leaders cover.

I heard about one person saying, being leading vulnerably, if you can share that you're not a perfect person, it makes others feel comfortable to share they're not perfect.

So if I'm like, hey, I actually don't know how to work on cars at all, which I really don't.

I know how to air up a tire or change a tire, but I don't.

And I know most men need to know how to work on cars, but I'm really not the best at working on cars.

I was like, you know what?

The other person next to me is like, I've been feeling insecure about that.

But that could be a trivial example, talking about working on cars, when there's much more to the integrity and to the character, things that we could talk about.

But by providing an example of what it looks like to disclose our openness and to disclose the things that we're working on, but that takes a ton of risk.

And I think it's why leaders are held to a higher standard.

If you look at Fortune 500 companies, leaders get paid the most, but then if they say something wrong, they get torched for it.

If you look at someone who's working on the production line, or you look at someone who's just answering phones, they can say a whole bunch of different stuff in the break room, and nobody's going to...

Maybe someone may say something about it, but it's not going to end up in the news.

But if you're a leader and you say the wrong thing, it's everywhere, because the standard is so much higher for you.

It's so much more critical, right?

So much more scrutiny, but the reward is so much higher.

So the standard for leadership is crazy, man.

So a quick question.

Are you going to move this home studio to your new house?

You have a room specifically for it?

I have a room, another bedroom, but I also have a living room.

So it depends on what I want to do.

Like, do I want to do it in the living room and do kind of like that back there with like the chairs?

Or do I want to do it in the...

Or do I...

The bedroom would be like the chairs with like a curtain backdrop.

And then the living room would be more like the table, like this setting.

You know what I mean?

Right now, I've been using the table because the stills that come from these cameras are really nice, because the lighting is really good, but the living room looks different.

I was just curious.

Yeah.

So I want your opinion on something.

Whenever we talk, and I say things about church and about Christianity and about...

Sometimes I feel nervous, and I feel like, oh boy, people who listen to this podcast, who aren't Christian, or who may have been hurt by Christians in the past, won't like it as much now, because they know.

And...

Or I'll fear like, oh no, I won't...

Maybe a guest that I want to come on will be like, oh, it's just a Christian podcast.

You know, like, I don't want to be attached to that, because sometimes Christians can be really mean to people.

Right?

And I'll have fear of, one, sharing, and then two, being like, oh man, I hope nobody gets hurt by this.

Does that make sense?

So, how do you want the podcast to be seen?

Do you label yourself as a Christian podcast?

It's not a Christian podcast, but I am.

And most of my thoughts are not my thoughts, but I feel like everybody has a philosophical foundation, and the ontology, the way that we think, that drives how we act.

So, for me, this isn't limited to Christians.

I've had people who are of different faiths on.

I want to make a comfortable space for anybody and everybody to come and have a conversation.

Same thing for the listeners.

I want it to be a comfortable space for that.

So whenever I am openly talking about my life, it's kind of hard for me to do that without also discussing why.

You know what I mean?

That makes sense.

Yeah, like I had that talk about why would I be worried moving to North Carolina that I would be away from community, and then I'd start having a whole bunch of sex.

Like, who cares?

That sounds fun.

That sounds fun.

You know what I mean?

That's the goal.

But when you say that, it's like for anybody that's listening that's not a Christian, this is not about, a Christian is not out there.

It shouldn't be out there.

And if somebody is making themselves, portraying that they're a Christian and they're judging people or criticizing people, they don't really need to be labeling themselves as Christian because our job is not to criticize, but our job is to bring hope and grace to everybody.

So it's not about, you know, if somebody says like, Oh, you're a Christian, so you must be condemning this.

Well, I'm not nobody to condemn.

I've done some of those things.

I've done it before.

But it's not about doing that.

It's like even though I've done that, I have hope in the faith that I have.

And whether you believe it or not, you know, you're still another person that's putting deserves for a reason.

And I might give you the same grace and the same hope that I would give to anybody.

I will treat you just the same, because God is not a respected person.

And no matter the background, no matter where you come from, I'm going to treat you and give you the same love and grace and hope that I would give anybody.

And I'm nobody to judge or criticize you for the way you might be doing your life, because that's not what Christianity is about.

You know, Christianity is about hope and forgiveness and grace and reconciliation.

So, I want the world to be reconciled and not torn apart.

And that's it.

That's what Christianity is about, coming together.

Yeah, and the Beatitudes in Matthew, it says, blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God, and bringing about peace.

And the funny thing about the world, about humans, is we're competitive.

And historically, we've always been competitive.

And unfortunately, part of that competition results in every generation, there's going to be people who tear away at things, there's going to be people who take advantage of people, there's going to be people who hurt others, there's going to be people who hurt groups of people, who will do terrible things.

But also, in every generation, there's going to be some people who rise above that, and their vision and their goal is to bring about unity, and to give voice to those who don't have voice, and to fight for those who are the vulnerable.

And in doing that, they get to elevate one another.

And that's my goal, but it can be scary at times, because the whole reason I'm doing this podcast is to showcase what human interaction looks like and what it means to have conversation with people and build social connection.

But to be honest with you, you can't really build fulfilling social connection if you're not yourself.

You know, if you're lying, if you're acting like somebody else.

So that's a message to everyone.

If you just moved, and you're acting like somebody you're not, good luck.

It's going to take a long time.

It may take a long time.

It may take a short time for you to recognize that the life that you want to live, it's not going to happen if you're being a jokester, if you're lying, if you're being duplicitous and putting on a facade.

But if you want to find that community and live that life that you called to live, you have to be honest and vulnerable.

So as I'm here talking to people, I've had people who are Muslim, or I've had people who are super atheists, they don't want anything to do with God.

And I just ask people to live, be themselves, be you, be true.

And whenever people are sitting down, I'm like, hey, like the best podcast that we can possibly have is if you're yourself and I'm myself.

And then together, just like the avocado tree, we see what fruit we can bear.

It's like, can you disagree on something?

And can you still get along?

Right.

Throw in differences, you know?

And I haven't done that much on this podcast.

I haven't disagreed much.

But one of the things that I've recognized for people who I admire is they're able to disagree and they're able to be stern, assertive, yet at the same time, be very gentle, right?

Be precise with communication, yet be hospitable.

Be intellectually astute, yet be intellectually generous, right?

Navigating all those nuances.

And that's what we're trying to do with this episode.

Anything I can do to help, bro.

Yeah.

So your second time being on, what is something that you've been wanting to tell the world since you last left?

You know, when the last episode was released, there were some people that were like, after listening to the episode, it made them feel like they just needed to give me a hug.

And I was like, well, I don't want to pretend myself as a victim.

The last thing I want people to feel is feel sorry about me.

So I want to make sure that they know that I share a lot of personal things, not to pretend myself as a victim, but to pretend myself as an overcomer.

Yes, those things happened to me.

But those things are not dictating or an excuse to my behavior.

Yes, those things happened to me.

But even though those things happened to me, I was able to overcome them.

Even though I got divorced once, I'm married again.

Even though I lost hope once, I have hope again.

Even though I was in the floor once, I'm up again.

And that's what I want to...

The way I want to portray myself is not as a victim or another person that's just part of the numbers.

But I want to be portrayed as a person that even though things happen, even though I fail once, twice, three times, four times, that I'm still up and trying.

And I'm trying to overcome.

And I'm trying to help people come a long ways with it.

Well said.

You are not the victim.

You are the agent of change.

And things may have happened to you, but you've chosen how to respond to them.

And you've done it quite beautifully.

And from your last podcast, I had so many people say, wow, how inspiring.

And so many people can say that, and at some point it's like, okay, okay, okay.

But the truth is, you got to choose how to respond.

And you are choosing and you have chosen how to do it in a respectful manner, which is why you are here, my friend.

Two additional questions for you.

You ready?

The first one is, what is something you wish more people knew about you?

Something more people knew about me.

I've experienced a lot of agricultural, back in the day things.

I'm like, I play video games.

I portray myself as somebody that, you know, I carry my iPhone and everything.

But deep inside of me, I've experienced living without electricity, living without running water.

And I'm an old, old soul deep inside of me, you know.

Do you think you could survive if the electricity went out?

Oh, yeah.

In the woods?

I'd live without it, yeah.

That's good for me to hear, because I am worried, not saying it's going to go out anytime soon, but I know people always ask if there was a zombie apocalypse, where did you go?

So I'm just going to try and go near you, and then try and live off of what you do and support you in whatever way I can.

If you had a billboard that was going to be seen by millions of people, what would you have it say and why?

Overcome.

Why?

Because I think overcoming is something important.

Don't be stuck, overcome.

That's what we're saying.

Don't be stuck, overcome.

And then would you have a picture on there or would it be like a fire?

I don't know.

I'll have to talk to the designers and see what they can come up with.

There's people that do that.

So you're going to outsource the design?

Yeah.

As long as it just says, don't be stuck, overcome.

Don't be stuck, overcome.

Fair enough.

And then, I mean, fair enough.

Other than that, let's wrap it up.

Thanks for being here.

Thank you for having me here the second time.

I love you as a friend.

You're a very good person.

I have a special place in my heart for you because you're one of the first people that we met here when we came to Lawrence.

Literally.

You're really close with my family, all my kids, all my dogs.

And yeah, we've traveled together.

You're a good friend.

So I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to share.

I hope it helps people.

They can listen to it.

They can become overcome.

They can be...

Hopefully, it helps them become overcomers.

Is that right?

Because become overcomers is like too many coms.

Yeah, there's a lot of it in there.

But it makes sense grammatically.

You said it right.

And I think everybody should become an overcomer.

And if they are having a hard time with that, then hit Santiago up and he will.

I'm always open to talk.

Yeah, he's always open to talk.

That's why he's on the Talk to People Podcast.

All right, folks, we'll see you next time.

Later.