#41 - Jared Auten: The Art of Compassionate Communication, Insights from a Crisis Line Director

It can be hard to set down the things that are part of our truth.

Yes.

And back to your museum example, it's not that they're not there, it's not that they're not part of our truth, it's not that we're being dishonest, it's that we're choosing how to present ourselves, and we get to make that choice.

And I think that's empowering.

I think it should be empowering.

Hey you all, Chris Miller here, and welcome to the Talk to People Podcast.

If this is your first time, let me quickly say that this whole entire podcast centers around one thing, and that is the importance and power of social connection.

I firmly believe that your life is better when you live it with quality relationships, and the more social connection you have in your life will lead to living a fuller life that's more resilient to stress.

Each episode I release features a new conversation, and the conversation you're about to see is with Jared Auten.

He is the Crisis Line Director for HeadQuarters Kansas, and he's incredibly knowledgeable with a lot of the things I'm passionate about.

And in Jared's day to day life, he works closely with crisis and suicide prevention.

What do you say to people in times of need?

What do you say to people when stress is at an all time high, or when it feels like the stakes couldn't be any higher?

It's also a pretty heavy topic.

So if you have someone that you've lost in your life to suicide, I just want to let you know we talk about that.

We talk about how important it is to be direct.

And if someone is contemplating suicide, to ask them directly because oftentimes many people are scared of that.

But that's what they need in that moment.

This episode really transformed my perspective on a suicide prevention hotline.

Initially, I thought it was a really scary thing.

But now I recognize is if someone reaches out to the hotline, that's a great thing.

That means that they're wanting to talk to somebody about it.

And this whole podcast is about talking to people.

If you quickly could subscribe to the YouTube, even if you're watching, go on YouTube, find the Talk to People Podcast, subscribe to that.

Comment below something that sticks out to you.

These conversations are meant to be fun, but they're also meant to be informative.

So comment below and then like, rate and review the podcast wherever you're listening.

I'm grateful you're here.

And without further ado, Jared Auten, you are officially live in the Talk to People Podcast dining room studio.

Love it.

Mr.

Jared Auten, for those who don't know, what do you do?

I work at Headquarters Kansas and we are a 988 contact center, so the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline.

And then we're engaged in suicide prevention and intervention.

And we do policy and advocacy work.

And we've been an organization in Lawrence for almost 54 years.

And yeah, we're a community of volunteers, staff, donors.

So yeah, it's an agency that I've been connected to since 2013, which is when I became a volunteer counselor.

And that kind of kicked off my involvement in suicide prevention.

So, Katie Richard, shout out to her.

She was a friend of, or she is a friend of mine, but she reached out to me and sent me this picture.

So she works with the agency, and the agency at the time was having a seminar about belonging and the power of community and people.

But they were doing it in response to suicide prevention.

And it made me think about how important it is to have people in your life whenever you are, one, navigating a crisis, but two, when you are talking to people on a suicide hotline, because I imagine you are asking questions and you are listening deeply.

And one of the things maybe that you ask is, talk to me about the people in your life.

Do you have those people?

So I began thinking about this and it was, oh, I want to talk to somebody who knows this world.

And then I reach out to one person, and then before you know it, we are getting coffee.

So I'm really grateful that you lend your experience and your wisdom about some of this because I think about it.

Because I imagine it being a bit nerve wracking for someone who's taking a call like that.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, it's an experience, like your first call, I think, you know, everyone can kind of remember their first call after they go through training, which is a long process.

It's like an eight week, nine week long process.

And then you're, you know, kind of thrown into the, into the depth, not without support and not without a lot of practice.

But yeah, it's anxiety provoking.

I can definitely remember my first call.

And I remember the things that didn't go well about it or, you know, the struggles I had and then the reflections I had afterwards feeling like, oh, I didn't do enough or, you know, this didn't go how I expected it.

And we deal with that a lot.

We deal with that kind of questioning a lot as caregivers or supportive people, right?

So yeah, it's definitely tough work because those conversations are not ones that we're accustomed to having in our everyday lives.

And you may stress yourself out because with sales, if you don't sell the person AT&T, they're going to go to Verizon.

They may get T-Mobile.

I know around here I get calls from Midco and, oh, we got AT&T Fiber.

But for that line of work, you may stress yourself out thinking, if I am not able to communicate or listen to them or perform well on this call, they may take their own life.

Yeah, I think that pressure is something that a lot of people have, especially before the people who want to become a volunteer or participate in our training are there because they want to help and they have an idea of what that helping looks like before they ever get started.

And usually that idea shifts over time as they kind of learn about our approach or philosophy for helping.

They learn about the skills, obviously, but to a large degree, you have to adopt a mentality of being invested, but not all the way.

And I want to nuance that a little bit, I guess.

We obviously want to show up, we want to care and be very present in the moment.

At the end of the day, and this is a reminder that we have to remind ourselves routinely, is you can only do so much.

So you're doing what you can to the best of your abilities at any given time.

The person who reaches out, they reached out, which indicates that there is a part of them that wants to stay safe or wants to get help, make a change, whatever it is.

But you can't make that change for them, and you can't act on their behalf, and their choices are their choices.

And we have to grapple with that routinely and sometimes with each interaction that we're having.

So it's some mental gymnastics, and it takes a lot of support.

It takes a system of support.

Yeah, you can't invest yourself completely, because then if you did, you wouldn't be able to invest in the other people.

And yeah, that is a nuanced subject.

Yeah, you don't want to over invest, over identify.

And this is something kind of relating back to my own personal experience or my own grief experience and journey working in suicide prevention.

It's like there was a time where I over identified with my loss.

It was the most interesting thing about me.

It served me because it connected me to a community of people through headquarters.

And since then, it connected me to other communities.

Yet, I was placing it at the center of my world or at the center of my identity.

And it was no longer serving me.

It was becoming something that was too heavy or always thinking with that kind of leading.

And since then or at some point, I realized I got to create some separation from this thing that I've been focusing so much on.

It served me.

It's given me meaning.

It's given me purpose, but I'm doing too much of it.

And this idea of balance, I think, is something that I use on a regular basis to try to check myself.

Yeah, with meaning making.

So tragedy happens and we make meaning of it.

I know the phrase, oh, it's God's plan or oh, there's a reason why or you don't know yet, but just wait.

And that's a brilliant thing about human beings is we are able to make meaning of things.

I know that with communication, the whole premise of it is you have a sender and you have a receiver.

And then in between, you have a ton of noise.

So I may ask you a question about earthquakes.

And to me, it's a fun question about natural disasters.

But you may have just lost your best friend in an earthquake.

And all of that psychological noise will change the way that you answer.

And we may have someone who's really loud speaking next to us.

Or the car may be shaking because the rotator belt's off.

And we're a little stressed out, so we answer differently.

So there's all this noise.

But in between, we get the process of creating shared meaning through our communication.

But the individual being able to make meaning of life is a superpower of ours.

I think so.

And I mean, I think the, in my experience, the primary method of meaning making is storytelling.

And I don't mean like, you know, fancy storytelling.

I just mean like sharing, you know, bits about yourself.

And that didn't always come easy, I think, for me.

And, you know, I don't think that there was an opportunity for me to share my story or at least I didn't take the opportunity to share my story in its entirety until I went through volunteer training, right?

And it was, you know, the conditions were right for me.

You know, there was a space that was created that felt safe enough to share.

I saw it modeled by the people around me.

You know, I could trust that space.

And that was conducive to my sharing.

And so, you know, whether it's that space or it's therapy or it's sharing with a trusted friend, right?

It doesn't necessarily matter.

But there has to be some form of sharing storytelling in order to make meaning of it, because you have to like externalize it.

And this is just me.

I don't mean this for everyone.

This has just been my experience.

But externalizing it allows you to look at it, consider it, and think about your next move.

I agree.

And my past year has been crazy.

And just this morning, I met with someone.

We got coffee.

And the story I told them is different than the story I told someone six months ago.

And it's not because a lot of things have changed, but it's instead how I'm talking about that story.

And it gives me more agency.

Sometimes I think we get bored with our, the narrative that we're telling ourselves, which isn't a bad thing.

It's like, you know, what is, you know, you can shape the narrative that you have for yourself.

You can change the characters in it or change the characters you're portraying.

And that's a pretty powerful thing to consider.

You can change your relationship to the event.

Just, you know, this might sound flippant, but just by choosing to do so, and I know it's not always an easy choice to make, or, you know, it takes people a lot of work to get to that place.

But when you do it, then you get to kind of see what the results are.

You get to see how it evolved, which is exciting.

So what does a typical call look like?

Typically someone's reaching out at or before that moment where things are spilling over.

You know, when someone's thinking about suicide, it takes a lot of strength for someone to reach out.

And so there might be some shame, some guilt feeling like a burden.

I think these are common things we hear from callers and things you can imagine.

If you're in a place where you are very vulnerable and the only support you feel like you can reach out to is a crisis line and you're talking to a stranger, what does it take to get to that point?

Not that there's anything wrong with talking to a stranger.

I think it's awesome, right?

But I know that it takes some vulnerability, some strength to get to that point.

So it's a really beautiful thing to kind of to witness.

It's also intense, right?

Because whatever someone's going through is now being thrown at you.

You're trying to understand a complex situation, complex feelings.

Ultimately, our goal is not to, again, not to take power over that person or their situation, but to allow them to understand their options, understand their situation, where they fit within it, to make choices.

We obviously fall on the side of, we want people to make healthy choices, we want people to make safe choices, we have that bias, we operate with that bias, but the call just unfolds how it unfolds.

Someone gets the opportunity to talk, someone there to listen and be present with them, and hopefully it gets to a point of identifying what steps they can take to stay safe, identifying who they can reach out to, who their support people are, and taking some steps to be safe for now.

It may not be safe forever, and that's not ultimately what people are asked to do or encouraged to do.

It's very much moment to moment, and that's how a crisis plays out, is one foot in front of the other.

At the beginning, I think of a 911 call, and it may be much different, but I think whenever you call 911, it's always, where are you?

What's your location?

Are you in danger?

So you'll hear us say, hello, Headquarters Counseling Center, and then the person says, hey, can I talk?

Yeah, what's going on?

What's going on is a question you'll hear dozens of hundreds of times a day, and that's really just to get people sharing from whatever place or perspective they feel comfortable at whatever level they feel comfortable.

What a cool question.

What's going on?

What's going on?

Yeah, I mean, I say it all the time.

It's a great platform, and it's funny how simple that is because we will overthink.

One of the questions I was thinking about asking guests whenever they come on is, what's your favorite question to ask people?

That question right there, what's going on, is perfect, because then it's like, all right, ball's in your court.

Take it however you want.

Just share.

Yeah, it can be hard.

I mean, it can be hard to know where to start for a lot of people.

Sometimes people need a little bit of guidance, and that's okay, and we can step in and provide that, especially when someone's reaching out for the first time, or you don't always have a script for how this should unfold.

I think communication and conversation, we have like these, I'll just use the word script, but maybe there's a better word, but like, you know how a visit to the doctor's office goes.

You know what your interaction is going to be like with the person at the front desk and your doctor.

You kind of play through that, whether you do it consciously or unconsciously.

So if you don't have an idea of how this, how should I receive this support, then it can be really uncomfortable and difficult to engage in the process.

I think it's why a lot of people struggle with therapy the first time they go.

I struggled with therapy the first time I go, partially because my mom tricked me into going when I was 14.

So that my first experience was not a positive experience, and then I ended up being a social worker who provides support to people.

But traditional therapy for me has not been something that I've had a lot of comfort with, and part of that's probably because of my experiences or because it hasn't happened on terms that felt comfortable, felt safe.

I didn't have an idea of how it should go.

How do you position that narrative in your head?

Because it's poetic, the fact that you at one point were a young teenager who lost your father by suicide, and then now you're a community leader involved in suicide prevention.

I guess I feel conflicted because part of my job, I guess, is to practice what we preach.

If what we preach is seeking support, accessing mental health, part of my job is to walk the walk.

And I'm someone who's not had a lot of positive experience.

I've had some positive experiences with formal mental health care, but my path feels a little bit different, and that's okay.

So I guess I've had to reckon with that.

And I've felt a little bit like I'm not fully bought in to the things that I'm saying.

At the same time, to me, it comes back to meaning making.

And so someone can make meaning in a therapy session, and that can be a really productive form of support.

For me, it's looked a little bit different because it's been through my work with headquarters, or it's been through, I'm sure at some point I'll talk about Camp KITA, but it's another community of suicide loss survivors.

And so that's connected me to other people, allowed me to do the things that I think are basic, which is sharing your story, right?

Balancing all of that, navigating all of that is hard.

And I mean, if you're like me, like I put a pressure on myself to understand it all, you know, I don't think we can understand it all, you know, so just understand a little bit, learn a little bit, stay curious.

That's something that it's a lot of the work that we do is being curious about people's lives, you know, what's going on for them, centering them, centering their experience and their story, and trying to keep ourselves, you know, out of it, not to depersonalize overly, but when someone reaches out, it's about them, it's not about us, it's not about how we feel providing support or help, it's about them and their experience.

And so we work really hard to center them and to center their voice.

Do you encourage reciprocity sometimes if someone asks, for instance, if I'm asking you a question and you're like, what about you?

And you ask me, do you ever do that on the phone?

Like disclose a little bit about you?

I think the role of self-disclosure is interesting and every person's different with their comfort.

Every counselor would be different with their comfort.

And then the appropriateness of sharing is really nuanced.

So when you're approached with the decision about whether or not to share something personal about yourself, the question you should be asking yourself is, does this, you know, you're still disclosing with the person in mind, you know, am I sharing this only for my satisfaction?

It's like if, you know, if I just want to talk about myself, this isn't the appropriate space to do it.

I need to find another space to do that.

But if this can provide this person with a connection, if this can build rapport, if this can improve their engagement, then it might be appropriate.

So there's no like hard and fast rule about self-disclosure.

And I think therapists encounter this a lot in practice too.

It's, you know, I'm not just a shell of a person, right?

I have my own experiences, struggles, and in some cases that can be brought into or should be brought into the work that you're doing with a person.

In a crisis situation, it's complex too because you can't see the person, you know, you want to be thoughtful about safety and people's motives.

Even in our work, there's folks who reach out, who may have, you know, nefarious is kind of a strong term, but, you know, their motives might not be pure.

That's the nature of the work, you know, people have the option of being anonymous, which is really important to access, and it can be something that's unfortunately abused.

Not to dwell on that, but, you know, it's just a part of the work too.

And people can express things that they wouldn't express in other spaces because they have anonymity.

We see that a lot with social media or like having an anonymous web presence, right?

It allows you to say and do things that you might not say and do.

So to some degree, we have to be a space where it's okay.

Like it's not okay to, you know, say something that's hateful, abusive, like we're going to limit that, right?

But if we step back and kind of like remove some of our feelings about it, it's like what need is that person expressing?

They might be expressing the need to, you know, talk about whatever frustration.

We might have opinions about that, but a lot of times we need to set our opinions on the back burner in order to provide support to someone.

Like I said, not without limit, but...

But it's rapid self-disclosure.

Anonymity and then crisis.

And also whenever someone asks you what's going on.

All right, here we go.

And listening to that, I remember with therapy for me, one of the hardest parts was I studied communication undergrad, graduate school.

After graduate school, I go to therapy for the first time.

And one of the things I learned a lot about was conversational turn-taking.

Like a tennis match.

Like a tennis match.

And that was something that I really liked.

And then I also liked this idea of there's this theory called social penetration theory, which is a weird sounding theory.

I always thought of it as the onion theory because different people have different layers and it takes a while to get to the core.

And some people disclose very differently.

I had someone on who was from Miami and he said, in Miami, you could talk to someone for one night and you know everything about them.

But y'all aren't really that tight.

That's just self-disclosure.

But then in the Midwest, you could be friends for 10 years and not know anything about them, but they'll be cool to you.

They'll have you over all this stuff.

So like self-disclosure is very different.

And the whole theory says, as we get to know people, we peel back different layers and everybody has different layers.

You may be comfortable talking about your family and it may take me a long time, or finances, money, whatever that looks like.

But then as we put back the layers, in order to peel back the layers, you have to have self-disclosure, reciprocity, longevity, so over a long period of time.

And then there was one more thing.

But I remember reciprocity being so big.

So whenever I went to therapy, I'd want to be like, what about you?

But that's not how it works.

Yeah, it's very one-sided.

Which can be off-putting, which I think is part of the reason some people may struggle to connect in a therapeutic setting.

It's because you're not, yeah, I think you're spot on because someone may not get that need met.

And then the question becomes, well, is there something wrong with me that like therapy doesn't work or therapy is a crock of...

I don't know if I can cuss on your podcast.

No, you totally can.

I don't want to interrupt you, but I also want to say I had to change my perspective about therapy to go from, okay, I'm not going to get reciprocity from this guy.

So because of that, I'm just going to spill.

And I guess that's the goal, right, is to go in there.

And I remember my friend, he told me, hey, that thing you don't want to talk about, go for it.

And that's also really hard for the therapist, is they sit down with people that may be business leaders or nonprofit leaders or government officials or teachers or whatever job you're in.

And anytime you'd interact with that person, 96 hours out of the, I don't know how many hours we get, 168, something like that, we would get a certain person, but then one hour a week for therapy, it's way different.

And that's the person that you interact with as a therapist because that person's coming to you for therapy and they're spilling like crazy.

There's a reason I'm not a therapist, because it's hard, it's hard work.

I don't claim to be an expert on any particular modality or anything like that.

There are people who are really, really good and skilled in that role, and especially in this community.

And it's really tough and challenging work.

It's an art, communications and art, and the support that we provide is not therapy.

While it's therapeutic, it's just an entry point into sharing about yourself, about your struggle, or about what you're proud of.

And that's another point.

Some of the conversations we have, people are sharing intimate details about their lives, things that they're scared to tell other people.

Maybe they're coming out and they've never told anyone, right?

And now they're telling a stranger.

That's a really cool opportunity to be witness to someone's vulnerability.

And that's something that people who are therapists get to experience on a routine basis.

And I think most see that as a gift.

Like I said, it's a science.

It's an art.

And we have our own kind of, at headquarters, our own approach or way of packaging these communication skills.

Oh, I'm fascinated by that.

Could you share a little bit about that?

The training that we provide is essentially active listening training.

We obviously focus in on suicide intervention, but the bulk of what we do is active listening.

And what that means is being present, using things like reflection statements to elicit further conversation or further sharing, so that a person, as I mentioned earlier, can understand their situation on their own terms, understand their options on their own terms.

And we just want to further that process.

What's an example of reflection statement?

So we use some jargon, but it's a feeling reflection.

So a feeling reflection is I can hear that you're feeling really frustrated.

And then we might modify that.

A feeling reflection with a source.

I can hear you're feeling really frustrated because your sister hasn't returned your call.

Then we'll use things like value reflections.

I can hear that your sister is really important to you.

She seems like someone who really cares.

We're elevating the feeling words that people use or honing in on them.

We're also elevating the values that a person talks about, whether explicitly or implicitly.

Sometimes just the topic of conversation a person chooses to focus on can imply a value.

Values can be tangible.

Your sister, your finances, your dog, or they can be intangible, things like safety.

We have a lot of things that are important to us that we talk about that we may not be aware of.

And so by examining your values, you can better understand how you want to act or what steps you want to take.

I think about conversational curating with the museum curator.

When you go to a museum, you have, or an art gallery, all of these paintings on the wall, and they're so beautiful, and the curator knows everything about them, and you get to walk, you go through the tour, and, oh wow, look at that, look at that, look at that.

But what we don't think about is in the back.

There's so many more paintings that aren't on the wall, but the museum host or founder gets to choose what to put up, and that's what gets seen, that's what gets talked about, that's what gets critiqued or praised.

And in conversations, we have the ability to do that.

Like with this podcast, you and I, we can start talking about being outdoors, and spend the whole entire time talking about being outdoors, because I know that's something that you love, and it's something I love, and we could go on and talk about it, but we're putting that on the wall, and we're not putting other things on the wall.

So it is interesting hearing, like why do you keep talking about that?

Like in therapy, I think my therapist asked me that question.

Why is it that you come in and you feel the need to talk about that certain thing?

Well, yeah, that's an interesting insight.

Or I like the museum curator example, because like back to my earlier point about over identifying with my loss, that was the thing I was putting on the walls, right?

And it stopped.

It was no longer interesting to me, or it was causing me pain, discomfort, whatever.

And so I had to take it down and put something else up.

So I know that's a helpful way of, I think, framing it and what you choose to put up there is also, yeah, what you're going to talk about.

You're going to talk about the things that are on the wall.

Yeah.

That's what you're going to get criticism about.

That's where you're going to get praise about.

You're going to say, wow, that must have been so hard.

Or, oh, that sucks.

I can't imagine that.

But whenever you take it down and you put something else up, it's still in the museum.

You know, it's still chilling back there.

And if you ever need to, you can go back and you can look at it.

Or you can say, hey, we're going to do an art shift.

We're going to do a change, like at the Spencer Museum.

I know that it's a whole career figuring out what goes where and what you're going to do in this season and that season and working with specific artists to broadcast their work.

And I think with us too, that's what life is like, is whenever we choose our identity, whenever we choose what we lead with, we're putting whatever we're putting on the wall.

And we can over identify with things and our identity changes, which is bonkers to think about.

And there's nothing wrong with not presenting certain identities first.

Right.

And I think sometimes people might feel a sense of shame or guilt about not showing up with that identity first.

Like, I think obviously I come from a lot of privilege, so my identities...

I have to take a step back from some of my identities or consider how those are playing out in a lot of spaces.

But for my identity as a suicide loss survivor, I think sometimes it's just not...

Relevant to mention.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, why do I have to lead with that?

Or is it, you know, the question I ask, which I've mentioned is, is it serving me?

Does it serve me to lead with this identity?

I had a recent experience where I was asked to participate on a panel of suicide loss survivors, or people with experiences related to suicide.

And it was just a couple weeks ago, and I was dreading it.

I was, like, actively vocalizing that I was not looking forward to it, that, you know, I questioned the utility of some of those types of panel experiences.

But really, like, what it boiled down to is that I have, over the years, come up with a way to present my story, to, like, I've put it into a script that I can just regurgitate, but I'm not really connecting with it.

And I can do the song and dance for this lived experience panel, and I know that it will produce, you know, the intended outcome.

But that doesn't serve me.

It just feels like I'm exploiting my own experience, or that potentially someone else is exploiting my own experience, and that doesn't feel good either way.

And so I had to choose how I was going to relate to it.

You know, was I going to do the kind of the same old song and dance, or was I going to try to get something out of it for myself so that I didn't feel so ickey as a result?

And, you know, I chose kind of the latter.

I showed up more authentically.

And, like, while I went into that experience thinking I wasn't going to get anything out of it, because I chose to show up authentically, leading with a few other identities, it was more productive for me.

It moved me to a place.

It allowed me to have a meaningful experience.

I cried after, right?

Like, these were things that I wasn't expecting to happen, that I was kind of bitter about, but I chose to be a little bit more authentic.

But that's tough.

You don't have to lay it all out there all the time.

I don't think that's...

There's even that pressure, and I experienced that within my agency and within some of the communities I'm in.

It's like there can be a pressure to be vulnerable all the time, but you don't want that to come at a cost to your own well-being, even if it's what's being modeled around you.

Which is a weird thing, because it's like on the one hand, walking around out in society, no one's being vulnerable, they're all presenting a facade, and then on the other extreme, you might fall into spaces where you have to confront it all the time.

You never get a chance to set it down, and I think that's back to balance, right?

You got to figure out when you're going to focus on these identities or these things about yourself, and when you're just going to be whatever person.

You're just going to do things that give you pleasure, that you enjoy, that fill you up.

I wrestled with that a lot.

What really helped me was Brene Brown.

She talked about vulnerability has to be paired with wisdom, and I hadn't thought about how you need to be wise about self-disclosure, but then the more I recognized relationships that I wasn't crazy about were relationships where I felt like we didn't have enough skin in the game for you to disclose what you just disclosed.

Every time we get together, the reciprocity isn't there, or I disclose something to you, but now I feel really bad about it.

There wasn't the wisdom in self-disclosure, so whenever I was reading about that, I'm like, you know what, it's okay for me not to be vulnerable to the depths of my experience with someone I just met.

You know, like we need to have that wisdom.

Yeah, I mean, we kicked open this podcast talking about my suicide loss, but we didn't do so without having a conversation first.

Like, I wouldn't have led with that if I didn't feel comfortable with you, and I think that's kind of the assessment people should make.

You know, is like, is this a person I can trust with a part of me that feels raw?

With your active listening, one thing that really stuck out to me was you were talking about like pressing on uncertainty or questioning uncertainty.

Like, whenever someone calls in, they're like, I'm not sure.

I've been thinking about suicide, but I'm not sure.

And then asking these questions, well, what's making you uncertain?

Yeah, we teach about the concept of ambivalence or uncertainty related to suicide.

So one thing that's really common for people who struggle with suicidal thoughts is like having one foot in both worlds.

There's a part of you that wants to die and then there's a part of you that wants to live or feels a sense of, you know, what if or whatever that looks like for the individual.

And when someone reaches out, that's, it's really clear.

Like for a lot of people, they're, they wouldn't think that someone who's calling the crisis line is uncertain.

They think, well, this person's really determined to kill themselves.

That's the stereotype.

Yeah, but they've also reached out.

So that's, you know, cue number one that there's some uncertainty.

There's pause there.

They're seeking help.

So we try to bring that into the conversation.

And so, you know, sometimes it sounds like, you know, I know that you reached out today and you're feeling really hopeless.

I also know that you picked up the phone to call today.

And that tells me that there's a part of you that wants to stay safe.

And suicide is a very, very real option for you.

So I want to talk about, you know, the part of you that does want to die, what's been going on that's gotten you to that point.

And we intentionally focus on the part of them that wants to die first.

Because if we just jump right to tell me about all the reasons you want to live, right?

That can feel really invalidating and is not going to be productive for most people.

That's kind of the response that many people get from loved ones, you know, family members, friends.

You share that you're thinking about suicide.

And the first thing that pops into someone's mind is, what about everything you have to live for?

You know, what about your parents?

What about your kids, etc.?

If you go straight to that, it can just further kind of the distance that people, it can further the isolation.

Like, you know, not only am I thinking about suicide, but it's totally seen as invalid.

And we come from a place of like, suicide is a valid option for a lot of people.

It's valid that they consider suicide.

We can understand, we can empathize with a person and because we spend time thinking about reflecting on what gets a person to thinking about suicide, we can understand how it makes sense in that person's mind, in that current state that it's seen as an option to end the pain that they're experiencing.

And they've reached out.

So that's an opportunity.

Yeah, because whenever I talked to you, one of the things I led with was, man, what a tough job.

It must be such a, in my head, I'm thinking a dark place.

You talk to people on the phone about suicide and convincing them or getting them to not do it.

And you, just talking to you for that brief moment really reframed my brain about it, because you're right though, them calling in is such a great thing.

We are so grateful that you called in, because if you have something to share and you don't have the opportunity to share it, we're here for you.

And we would love to hear about what's going on, but we also want you to know it's a big deal that you made the call.

So you reframing that for me was really helpful, and I think that's going to be a big benefit of people listening to this.

I think that it's a transformative concept, and I think one of the concepts that helped me understand my loss helped me form a healthier relationship with my loss, because for a lot of people who lose someone to suicide, especially when they lose a parent, they're angry, and they have to reconcile with this anger and sadness that they feel like not only have I lost the person who I love, but I also hate them for what they did.

Why did they leave me is the question children ask themselves or anyone asks themselves.

Of course, we can never know what if anyone's lost someone to suicide, we can never know what that person was thinking at that time.

But if we know that suicide was seen as an option for ending their pain, then I think we can empathize with it.

I think that we can relate to it differently.

We can set down some of the anger and hopefully understand a little bit better.

Because that dissonance has got to be crushing to have the moments where you see your kid and you think of all of the life.

Wow, look at this beautiful kid.

But then you have moments where you think about, I'm hopeless.

There's no other option for me.

So being able to call in and the person validating that feeling has to be incredibly validating.

Yeah, yeah.

Because no one, often no one in your life is saying to you, I get why you're thinking about suicide.

It makes sense based on what you've told me.

And you've reached out and that tells me there's a part of you that wants to stay safe.

And, you know, maybe it's not safety forever.

But what if we took some time to just explore that uncertainty that you're feeling and see what the results are?

So part of what we do is just provide people with time and space to consider the uncertainty that they're feeling.

And then hopefully that gives them some more time to consider their options.

At the end of the day, they can choose to kill themselves.

And that is something that we don't have the power to change.

But they're reaching out.

You don't have the ability to remove their capability of killing themselves.

Right.

Yet you do have an opportunity to move the needle, which is really cool, and that could probably be where the pressure comes into.

So value reflections, feeling reflections.

Those are two things about active listening.

What else?

I think you and I talked about minimal encouragers.

You know, the sounds you make when you nod, right?

You know, we use these kind of like little nuanced communication to keep conversation going.

We're really thoughtful, too, about the questions we ask.

We try not to ask too many questions.

You know, we try to keep a balance of reflections to questions.

We want to weigh heavier on the number of reflections that we're using.

Why is that?

Because questions can sometimes be misguiding or too guiding, right?

There's this idea of like the level of guidance that we use in a conversation varies depending on what the person needs.

And so sometimes a person is going to need more guidance, like I mentioned earlier, because they haven't done this before.

So we can guide them along by asking more questions.

Other times a person doesn't need our questions because they just get in the way of their process.

So you have to kind of dial that up or down based on what a person needs and try to keep your questions open so that they open up doors for exploration as opposed to your closed-ended questions, which you're just going to get a short response.

Sometimes we have to lean more heavily on questions for engagement because we're not hearing a lot from the person because they have some hesitation or they're resistant to talking, but they're still there.

So we try to build rapport a little bit through questions, but really thoughtful and tactful questions.

And then there's some more, I guess, clinical skills that we use, that we try to safety plan with people, and that sounds kind of formal, but it's really just people knowing what steps they can take to prioritize their safety after the call ends.

It's likely that suicidal thoughts are going to return for a person.

So what are you going to do when that happens?

Given that you are uncertain, given that you do want to stay safe for now, that you have been able to identify some reasons for living, what do you want to do for yourself to stay safe?

So sometimes that looks like just verbally going through like, okay, here's my warning signs, here's the things that I know about myself that indicates I'm not doing well.

Here's the things I can do to either distract myself or cope.

Here's the people I can reach out to, you know.

You've just had a good, hopefully you've had a positive experience reaching out to the lifeline.

You can do that again, you know, here's an additional support in your system that wasn't there before.

Or here's a person I can give my gun.

Here's a person I can pass off my medications to.

Like talking about access to lethal means is something that's really important, especially related to firearms.

All that kind of gets wrapped up into the conversation that we hope is collaborative, that we hope is person-centered, so that a person is driving their own car and ship and we're not doing too much leading.

It's a lot of stuff that people would feel scared to ask.

Yeah.

And whenever I was an RA, I did some training, and I remember one of the things I gathered was, ask the scary stuff.

Sometimes even lead with it.

And I wasn't as trained as you are, or didn't go through the process that you direct other people through, but asking that scary stuff of, oh, so where is your gun?

You know, you have a gun, right?

I know you've talked to me about it.

I know of a situation where a friend had a gun and then had suicidal thoughts, so it's like, okay, that's in a similar ballpark.

Let's talk about that, right?

Where's the gun?

Do you have ammo?

Things like that, questions that I think a lot of people are scared to ask, but access to lethal means.

Yeah.

And along the lines of asking direct questions, we train people to ask directly about suicide.

And that's something that can be a big hurdle for a lot of people.

They might hold some myths that asking about suicide puts the idea in someone's head.

That's a common one out there.

What we know is that it's incredibly protective to ask directly because it opens up a door.

It sends the message to the person that you're a safe person to talk about suicide with, that you're confident talking about suicide.

Whether you're freaking out on the inside or not, it doesn't so much matter as long as you ask directly and then really understand that, okay, suicide is what we're talking about.

Let's talk about that because that's the most important thing right now, your safety and the fact that you're thinking about suicide.

Saying the words clearly, are you thinking about suicide, is a perfectly okay, encouraged, protective thing to do.

And it communicates you're willing to go there.

Yeah.

I'm willing to go there.

Let's talk about it.

You've been alone with these thoughts so much.

And you're so nervous that nobody else will talk to you about them.

But I am willing to go there.

Being direct in this moment is being kind.

And it is being smart.

You know, like, let's be direct about that.

You mentioned the one thing, you're talking about how questions can be guiding.

And I have such a hard time with that with podcasting.

Because we can take this anywhere, and knowing what questions to ask, because you're totally right.

I just recently started prompting people rather than asking questions.

So sharing something and not even making a new question, just stop talking.

And I don't know why it took me so long to figure that out, but it helps me because they can either respond to what I just said, or they can go back to what they were saying, right?

But whenever I ask a question, it really does, it'd be like an author writing a book, and they have a really good chapter.

And then I come in and I say, all right, second chapter.

I need you to wrap it up.

Yeah, I had such, we were just getting started.

So knowing those questions to ask has been really hard for me.

Yeah, conversations are connections, you know.

A suicide intervention is a conversation, right?

It's establishing a connection.

And I think it's natural for people to bounce off of each other.

So everyone has friends where it's like, you get together and you're sharing stories, or you're just bouncing off of each other and it feels really natural.

It feels really like things are clicking along.

And then everyone has friends where it's like, you know, it's hard to converse, you know.

It's hard to, because things aren't clicking.

That's okay, too.

I mean, it's okay to be around people who you don't, your primary form of connection is not conversational based, it might be activity based or, you know, I have lots of people in my life who it's, we're connecting around an activity as opposed to, you know, maybe a shared topic of interest or a shared set of values, right?

It can be different.

But you're into soccer, right?

You're connecting with people.

You're not communicating with them when you go out on the field, you know, a little bit, but you're playing a game.

Nothing big.

And it's funny, people will laugh because sometimes they'll be like, hey, how was your weekend?

And they'll be like, dude, we're playing soccer.

Get out of here with that.

Yeah, get out of here with that.

Or they'll be like, good.

I'm like, yeah, what happened?

You know, and they'll be like, stop.

And one thing that's been helpful for me, I learned it whenever I was an RA.

My first year as an RA, I tried to be everybody's best friend.

All of my residents.

Be like, oh, hey, this is Jake from Chinook, Kansas.

This is Chris from Kenosha, Wisconsin.

This is John from Omaha, Nebraska.

And I studied everybody like the roster of sports team and knew their class schedule and everything.

And I got so disappointed because they all didn't want to be my best friend.

Yeah.

I was like, what?

And learning, they have that connection present.

They have it.

And you need to be grateful for it.

And with soccer, what I recognize is I won't be able to connect with everybody.

And knowing that is so freeing.

Knowing that I value that social connection, so I'm going to try and connect with people.

But everybody that shows up, I'm not going to be able to connect with them all.

So it's been really helpful because recently, people have approached me about doing social events.

And I'm like, perfect.

I'm really excited to attend.

Let me know when you plan it.

That helps out, right?

Because then other people are planning things, and I just show up as a participant rather than as organizer or commissioner.

And it gives me...

It removes pressure from me.

And then it helps me realize, like, hey, I don't have to ask open-ended questions to all 30 of these guys.

Yeah.

I could just show up, not talk, play soccer.

That's...

Yeah.

I think for people who...

I mean, all of us crave connection.

Like, we all need a sense of belonging.

And I think sometimes it can feel like you're missing opportunities if you're not putting all the effort into connecting with someone, you know, understanding them.

But that's also exhausting.

It's super.

And I will have FOMO for people.

Yeah.

Whenever I show up to a big event, I'm like, okay, yeah, yeah, okay, Jared, I'll talk to you.

And then I'll see someone be like, oh, man, I haven't talked to him.

And I'm like, oh, what if this person blank blank and blank blank and blank blank?

And it's not really helpful for me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I went to an event last night and there was one guy who I didn't really talk to.

And due to that, he was mysterious.

So I was in one conversation, I was thinking, oh, I should talk to that person.

I ended up never talking to him and focusing on this conversation.

It worked out really well, but it's funny how I'll get FOMO with social interactions.

I bet introverts cannot relate.

Now I get it, though.

I similarly feel like you want to get as much as you can from the people around you.

I recently came back from Camp KITA, which is a camp for kids who have lost loved one to suicide.

And while I'm there, I'm the 24-7 emotional first aid.

That's my job.

And I have a couple coworkers who are also in that position.

And we have a really unique job that we just kind of roam around the summer camp, which is a traditional summer camp paired with group therapy.

And all these kids are connected by their shared experience, right?

And our job is to be available around the clock for whatever emotional needs come up.

And so we can be very busy, but also, you know, as the week progresses, as these people establish, these young people establish connections with each other, they start to fill that need for themselves.

So, you know, a kid has an experience, whether it's playing soccer or in group, you know, maybe there's something that they're working through.

They're crying, they're, you know, taking a moment for themselves.

I have a choice, you know, I can go intervene, I can go insert myself into that person's experience.

But more often than not, what we see is someone else, you know, comes in, a peer or someone who they've really connected with.

Or they just get that time and space to have their own experience, right?

So there's just the like being so active.

Like sometimes we just have to take a step back and kind of let things unfold and not try to exert so much control over a person's experience or our own experience.

Like you don't have to manage every interaction.

And I think that's something I've that's played out at Camp KITA, but also plays out in everyday life.

Yeah, creating the absence and allowing others to step in.

I mean, with this podcast, it's been growing, which is really cool.

But recently I've hit a point to where I'm limiting it.

I need to get other people on.

I need to get a team.

So yesterday I spent some time working on a team application and coming up with the roles.

And it's all people who would like to give their time.

Right now, it's not a large revenue generating organism, but at some point it could be.

And there are people who want to be involved and people want more experience and they could build their portfolio.

But it's so hard for me to give up that control.

And I know that with conversation, it's funny that we think about it or that we don't think about it, but it's same thing.

Like it's so hard for me sometimes to show up to a social event and not really and just listen.

And I know with that camp role, your job is to navigate and be there, be the trusty sidekick for people as they navigate really hard emotional stuff.

Yet also providing the opportunity for others to step in and fill that connection.

That's tough.

It is, yeah.

But it's, yeah, I don't know.

It's cool to be witness to some of the things.

And I think that's how I've kind of shifted it.

It's like, it's okay to be an observer or to just notice what's happening.

And there's a lot of value in that as well.

We don't always have to be at the center of what's happening.

And it's changing that identity, right?

Because you're going from, I'm the leader of this group, I'm the one who maintains and drives conversation, to I'm the one who helps people rise to the occasion so that they can break feelings of, oh, I can't talk in this group, or oh, I'm not able to do this, I'm not able to do that.

You can, and you switch that perspective.

For me, I think about how you said over-identifying with something.

I hadn't even thought about the process of over-identification, but that makes so much sense, because we can get ourselves locked into something.

For me, for this past year, my narrative has been, oh, I was in this job, that was this fancy job, and I quit because I was traveling so much, and then I had some family crises show up, and since then, in the process, I've been able to do a podcast in a production company, play this and work on that, and I've told people that story over and over and over, and just thinking about how you said over-identification makes me wonder, I wonder what would happen if instead of thinking about all of that, I said, yeah, so I'm currently building an independent media studio, and I produce podcasts, and I create content that helps connect others, and boom, that's it.

And that process, because it's true, I'm not lying, but then that whole long story, I'm not lying with that either.

So deciding what to pick and what you're identifying with, I'm thinking of that in the moment right now.

Yeah, that's cool.

I mean, it can be hard to set down the things that are part of our truth.

And back to your museum example, it's not that they're not there, it's not that they're not part of our truth, it's not that we're being dishonest, it's that we're choosing how to present ourselves, and we get to make that choice.

And I think that's empowering.

I think it should be empowering.

It's one of the things actually about summer camp that I think, I didn't go to summer camp as a kid, but I've gotten to go to Camp KITA the past several years, and people show up at summer camp, and it's like you're out of your normal context.

You're out of your school, your sports, whatever, and you're meeting entirely new people.

And that is an opportunity on a small scale to change how you relate to people, to think about your own narrative, to try new things, like to uncover new interests.

And so it's like there's a lot that can be learned from a whole week at summer camp.

And it's really interesting, too, just to be an observer of kids as they go through that experience.

And adults are no different.

You come in with a certain expectation or a set of fears or concerns, and you buy into it, or just because you're in a place that's different, you get to transform, and you get to try on different identities or try on different activities and just be a different version of yourself, which is okay.

And then you go back into your kind of typical context and environment, your family, and you can choose kind of how, do you keep some of the things that you learned about yourself?

Or did you learn that you didn't like that?

And then you evolve.

And I think that's a really healthy process for all of us to engage in.

And there's nothing wrong with strongly identifying with things.

I don't want that to be conveyed.

And you get the opportunity to choose.

There's nothing wrong with having a strong identity, having a leading primary identity.

Whenever people make podcasts, I tell people, you have to have a primary identity.

What are you going to be talking to your audience from?

You could be a police officer, but also someone who works out a lot.

Are you talking to them as a fitness nut or as a cop?

And you can have several identities, but pick a primary.

And I think that similar to life, we can have our big identities, but we're not bound to them.

That's so encouraging.

We're not bound to them.

Regarding questions and reflections and knowing when to ask a question and knowing when to reflect on a value or a feeling.

I know you mentioned three to one.

Is that something that you use throughout your work?

When we're teaching about skills, we use words like formulas.

But it's not that we want people to be formulaic.

The reason we call them formulas and the reason we teach the way we do is so that when someone calls in in crisis, your cortisol levels rise and your anxieties up as the counselor.

And so when you practice things in a formulaic way, you form habits that then serve you in a crisis moment when it's harder to access the executive functioning part of your brain, you've got things that are, you've laid some solid foundation for the work that you're going to do.

And then when your anxiety levels out, you can engage in a more, in a way that feels authentic and feels like you're connecting with the person.

That's a really good point because in the crisis, we will revert back to what we know the best.

So if we can drill down these ideas, then we're going to navigate our crisis better.

Yeah.

And in certain settings, like when someone reaches out to me, when I'm at home, or if someone in my life is struggling, my first response is probably my more authentic, or more natural response, I should say, which is like, holy shit, what do I do?

This is really scary.

Whereas if I'm in a professional setting, then it's easier to access those skills.

So even people who learn these skills, or feel really comfortable and confident, it's still scary, it's still someone you care about, and you can't take that away from the situation.

You just have to try to notice when you're doing it, and then recalibrate to the person.

Yeah, that's a really good point, because I will ask therapists, whenever you're talking to your wife, are you thinking like this, or talking to a friend?

And most of the time, it's not.

No.

Yeah, I'm turning it off.

Yeah, because if I talk to my wife, how I would talk to someone who's in crisis, we would have bigger problems, because it doesn't work that way.

You can incorporate some of the skills to be a better listener, right?

We can all be better listeners.

My wife's a social worker, so yeah.

So if you both did it...

We know the tricks, so you got to be...

You'd be spinning in circles if you both did it.

Right.

With the arc of a conversation, tell me about that.

I don't know, I kind of think all interactions or conversations might have an arc.

There's all these storytelling elements that I feel like are kind of weaved into our conversation today.

And I don't know a lot about storytelling, but in a crisis contact, you're going to see kind of a typical arc.

And people can't stay at that heightened level of anxiety forever, generally speaking.

It has to come down.

And just the process of talking, of hearing someone's voice that's calm, that the tone is comforting.

The things that they're saying are empathetic.

Like we're going to see a person's...

We're going to see kind of that spike, and then we're going to see it taper off, ideally, as they engage.

And that's a really cool thing to witness too.

And as you're clicking along as the counselor, you want to be able to check in with that, and to get feedback from the person.

They're giving you feedback that you're taking in through their tone of voice, through their statements.

Maybe the quality or content of their thoughts change.

If someone calls in feeling really anxious and everything is...

The world is falling in.

I'm the worst person in the world.

All these negative thoughts.

And you see the quality or the content of those thoughts change.

You can notice that.

You can point that out to a person.

Earlier when you called, you said you were feeling really anxious and you talked about how you felt like you were worthless.

And I've just heard you talk about your work and how important it is to you and everything that you feel proud about.

And I just want to note that difference.

That's cool.

Yeah, it is really cool.

It's cool when people do that for you because we aren't always the best at noticing.

Yeah, because we're just going through our process.

So being a mirror to someone, being a sounding board to someone helps them see themselves as you're noticing them or as you can just objectively lay out, like this is what I'm seeing, do with it what you will.

And that's helpful.

We need people to reflect back to us.

And I think that's how we form our ideas about ourselves.

Like, it's how I formed the idea that I'm a resilient person or how I began to identify with that term.

It's because someone told me.

I didn't come up with it on my own.

Someone said, oh, you're really resilient.

I'm like, oh, okay, cool.

I am.

Yeah, that's me.

Right.

I guess I am resilient.

They're like, you're really funny.

And you're like, yes, yes, I am.

Thank you.

And then we try and be the funny guy.

Yeah, it's on my my my profile, my Facebook profile.

Yeah.

Funny, resilient.

The cool thing about what like this conversation is, people may hear it and be like, okay, that's good for a therapist or that's good for someone working in suicide prevention.

But what I love is every single conversation that we have, there's this process of meaning making.

There's this process of a sender and a receiver.

There's this process of there's noise in between and we're both bringing something to each side of the table and we each have our own stories and we're actually also revising our stories, but we're also sharing our stories.

So this mezclad, this mixture of all of this stuff happening, the more that we think about the technicalities, I think the more helpful it is for people to actually connect.

So like you said with the formulas, right?

The three to one or a reflection value or value reflection or feeling reflection or reminding people of how far they've come.

These concepts are so helpful for people to know because whenever you're talking to a friend and they're feeling down about their job, you can continue talking to them and you can look at the arc of the conversation or when you're in a conflict with your wife, I know this with my relationship, I can be really upset, but then 30 minutes later I feel better, so that arc, right?

And knowing conflicts will have an arc.

There's going to be some moments where it seems completely crazy and I can't believe you said that or I can't believe you did that, but then it's not going to last forever.

So like telling yourself that is so helpful.

Yeah, the feelings are going to wax and wane and how you relate to a conflict or an event is going to change.

You know how, again, from a loss perspective, how you relate to a loss is going to evolve over time.

The feelings might be the same or similar, but they might come up in new and different contexts.

The feeling sad about a loss, for me it's like thoughts of becoming a father.

When I became a father just two and a half years ago, it was a strange experience and one that kind of like brought up new feelings that I hadn't considered.

Not new feelings, I mean new thoughts.

The feelings were the same, feeling scared or feeling abandoned, right?

And then now I'm confronted with this new identity as a father and a new person to relate to.

And it's like, what does that mean for my relationship with my dad?

And it's like a big old mess, but one that I couldn't have anticipated what would have come up.

I did know that I was feeling apprehensive about it coming up at all, you know, becoming a dad.

So I don't know, that's just, it feels like an example of just relating to events differently over time.

But yeah, things not being forever.

I have two questions that I ask every guest.

First one is, if you could write a book, what would you write about and why?

If I can write a book, I think it'd be about connections.

I don't know what form that would take, but like noticing connections is something I do, whether it's in interactions or whether it's like out walking around outside.

It's like connection is something that keeps me grounded.

Whatever the book would be, it would result in the reader feeling more connected.

Hopefully.

And then second question being, if there were a billboard that was going to be seen by millions of people, what would you have it say?

That's a tough one.

I mean, the suicide prevention part of me would want, I don't know.

It's like, do you go something funny that brings people joy?

Right, while they're driving.

Yeah.

Or do you go with something that's, you know, meaningful?

Maybe it's a connection.

That's boring, but that's all it says.

It just says connection.

Connection.

Get connected.

Get connected, yeah.

I don't know.

Yeah.

Right.

Or, you know, smell the roses.

I don't know.

Yeah, we can work, Sean, with the billboard.

Yeah.

We've got time.

Yeah, we've got time.

Or I could say call, you know, call 988.

There's a lack of billboards.

Those billboards.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I am hopeful that we haven't touched on that much, but, you know, part of my work is getting the word out there about 988.

Hey, let's boost them.

Yeah.

So people should reach out to 988 if they're concerned about themselves or a loved one.

And it connects to us if you're in Kansas and it's a resource for people.

So yeah, that's the better answer is, you know, connect to 988.

And you're still dealing with connection in 988.

There we go.

It's like best of both worlds.

So let's pretend like someone hasn't been listening to the podcast at all.

What is 988?

988 is the new three digit dialing code for the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.

And so it's a network of over 200 independent contact centers that have a staff or volunteers who are trained to answer and provide support over calls, chats and texts.

And so it's available nationwide in the United States and has been live for about a year.

So it's an exciting opportunity to kind of redesign and reimagine what crisis care looks like and it's starting with this new three-digit number, which is intended to be more accessible.

But it'll become a system of care that connects people to some in-person supports, things like mobile crisis teams that can come to you when you're struggling or crisis facilities, places you can go if you're struggling and need a safe place to be.

So hopefully in Kansas we'll get to a place where all these things are connected and supporting people in crisis and then ideally moving people beyond crisis and getting to a place of stability or recovery.

I think that's, we're not just in the business of trying to put out fires, but trying to get people to a place of recovery.

To where they thrive.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's hard to get there and people need support to do it.

So beautiful, my man.

Well thank you for being here.

Yeah, it was fun.

Thank you.

It's a blast.

If you are ever in need 988, you can listen to what Jared just said again, a beautiful resource.

I'm really grateful for what you're doing for the city and also for the state.

And I hope that people are encouraged to know we have a big difference that we can make in every conversation.

And we also aren't bound to our narrative.

Okay.

All right, folks.

We'll see you next time.

Take care.