#47 - Sean Richards: Why Are So Many People Lonely At Church?

Welcome to the Talk People Podcast.

All right, we are live here in the upstairs studio.

We have myself and Mr.

Sean Richards.

But if you've listened to the podcast, do you remember what episode you were on?

No idea.

Me neither.

But what I do know is I had a fun time.

But for those who haven't listened to that episode, and maybe they're just joining for the first time, who are you?

My name is Sean Richards.

I live in Lawrence, Kansas.

I help lead a church here in Lawrence.

Small church that's heavily relational, home-based currently.

And yeah, I work for a company called The Purpose Company.

And I do a lot of things for the company.

But ultimately, our goal is to help entrepreneurs, executives, corporate professionals, really anyone who's looking to get clarity around their purpose, and then to translate that into helping, using the best of who they are to help others.

And the main vehicle of that is through speaking and consulting and writing.

So yeah, I get to work every day with really fascinating people who are all, maybe they found themselves in a position where they were unfulfilled in what they were doing currently, or they knew that they had more to give.

And so maybe they enjoyed what they do, but they felt like they were leaving something on the table if they weren't going to do more with what they had.

And so that's either providing a solution to the world or a message to help others.

You help people do TED Talks, you help people write books, you help people give speeches at big conferences, and you paid a lot of money for it.

Correct.

Which is something that I like to do, and we've talked about this a lot, about social connection.

But you have one foot in the business world and one foot in the ministry world.

What's that like?

It's very different, and it's not, I mean, at least for me personally, but I think, you know, my ministry is really locally centered, you know, so it's really about the people in Lawrence, Kansas.

And, you know, I have relationships and opportunities broader than that.

But then, you know, the overlap with, you know, what we do in the business is, you know, it still comes down to relationships and helping people.

And so I feel like, you know, I get to serve in a different kind of way.

People have different focuses or the goals of, you know, those objectives look different, you know, depending on which hat I have on.

And your church doesn't have a building?

Nope.

Why not?

Can't afford it.

No, I mean, I think, yeah, it's not to say.

I mean, that's true.

You can't afford it.

I mean, we could.

I feel like you could.

Yeah, we could, I mean, anyone really could.

But yeah, you know, the nature of why we started the church, when we did, why we did, was really shaped by this idea that more and more we're living in a post-Christian environment in America.

Now, we're still in the Midwest, so I think a lot of people have some kind of interaction in their history with Christianity or the church or someone they know.

But that that experience is getting, can look very different for lots of people.

And so my hope was really to set up a church in a way that would be maybe not like every other church, not with any kind of intent to put down what other churches were doing or anything to that nature.

It really isn't reactionary.

It was more kind of, hey, how could we be in a position and a place to address certain aspects of Christianity in a way that would be hospitable?

And so we talked about this last time, but having radical hospitality, you know, foregoing some of the maybe more preferential Christian norms to hopefully present ourselves in a way to really reach people who have had either not good experiences with Christianity or they've never been exposed.

And so how can we help them really understand the core, you know, elements of what it means to, you know, when a group of people get together as the church, Christians gathering intentionally for fellowship, what can that look like?

And, you know, what's the true essence of that?

And so building, no building.

I would love to have a building because that would just, all that would mean is that we would have, we'd be in a position where structurally we would need that kind of support, which means we would have people coming to know God, hopefully, and living for Him.

We've talked a little bit about the power of groups within churches, because I feel like a lot of people go to church to find community, and they have difficulty finding it.

And I feel like church historically is one of the social institutions for people to go.

I don't know if you've ever heard this idea of people typically meet their spouse at work, at church, or at the bar, something like that.

But I feel like people will go to church to find that community, but then they show up week after week, and they have difficulty finding the community, and they feel it's something wrong with them, or it's something wrong with the church, and this is something I've been reflecting on, too, with college ministry as well.

I met with someone doing college ministry today, and he said that it's so lonely.

He was talking about KU.

He said there's two spots to fill.

Either you're an animal, and you go to all of the parties, or you're a...

Not a literal animal.

Right.

Or you're a book person, and you are hitting academics really hard, and anything in between is quite difficult to find.

Interesting.

To give it a little bit of a flavor, you know, a lot of my experience within...

So, I grew up Catholic, and, you know, that was kind of an unknown.

I don't know how I'd encapsulate it, but I ended up coming to a personal relationship with Jesus through Young Life, through a camp.

And it was really this, you know, this hyper-intensive experience of, you know, they call it the best week of your life, you know, with the idea of, you know, you're in community and you're having all of these amazing experiences, and, you know, then people are just, you know, caring for you, and, you know, you're in this beautiful place.

And I had this incredible opportunity to, you know, make a personal choice decision for Christ, and it was explained and laid out to me, and I felt compelled to do that.

And then what I found was that I came home and I didn't have any of that.

I think some of that was a function of a few things.

I don't necessarily have to get into that, but what I found myself was I was really craving to get back there.

And so every summer in high school, I would go back for a month at a time, or I would do whatever I could to be put in that position.

And so when I was 18, 19, you know, I kept pursuing that, and I felt a personal call to the local church didn't really have a concept of what that was.

Started reading the Book of Acts.

Started just opening myself up to what does that look like?

Started kind of just having observations.

And I kind of got this dream of what if that camp experience didn't have to stay in those places?

What if those experiences could be in the everyday?

And that idea really is what's driven me to today.

Is, you know, this hope of big, small, it doesn't matter, but what if we could, what if the common experience for a Christian is at, with the same intentionality and the same, you know, care and veracity for life and all the things that, you know, happen in these really magical times and spaces?

Because that's, they're really, but what if you could draw those into the everyday?

And one of the key pieces to that is, you know, doing life together and having a lot of close, intentional relationships.

And yeah, so for me, that was kind of my vision, was what if I could bring those experiences into the everyday?

And since then, that's really what I've been going for.

As a leader, as someone who is trying to set up the church in a way that could give people the opportunity to be involved in a community like that.

And I think, you know, as Jesus says in John, he talks about that the world's going to know you're my disciples by your love for one another.

And so that really stuck with me in the sense that one of the great witnesses of the Christian faith is actually the love, the intentional love that happens within a community of believers who are committed to each other.

And so what I found when I came back was there's a lot of hurdles, and there's a lot of different aspects of life that pull us in different directions that are really competing for our time and attention and intentionality.

And that not a knock at the church, but found that not a lot of people set it up in a way that really goes to bat to like see that come to fruition for people.

Yeah, I share with you the story, and I'm going to share it on here.

And as I do, I feel like I need to preface, I like a lot of these ministries.

I think there's some really incredible things that happened from them.

But whenever I was in undergrad, I got approached by Carry the Love, which is a part of the Send or the Send is a part of Carry the Love, whatever.

And the whole thing was it's going to be one big night, and we're going to gather all of the college age students in the Oklahoma City area.

It put on this huge worship night.

And I have friends and they all go to the Send in Kansas City Chief Stadium.

And I remember I went out to Wake Forest University in North Carolina my first year there, and someone was like, we would love to bring Carry the Love there.

So I was feeling really jazzed up about, wow, this is going to be my first impact on the university.

I'm going to gather all of the college ministries.

What better way to build community than be the, and immediately I'm the connect with all these college ministries.

And I remember approaching the big college ministry on campus, and the college pastor said, I'm not interested.

He was kind.

I don't know if he said, I'm not interested, but the gist of what he said is, I'm not interested in that.

I'm interested in learning how to lead my students to live life in the mundane, to live life in the moments that aren't the boom, the pow, the big things, and all of these people from everywhere.

And you got these people your age who are also attractive, and they're also single, and they share the same faith as you, and you all are singing, and then you go back to your dorm room and you're chilling alone.

And then the next day, that place that was this big worship night is a academic advising hall for engineering students.

And you're like, what in the world?

And it's boom big and boom down, and there's summer programs with YWAM, and I know people who've had their lives changed with YWAM, and it's awesome.

That's incredible.

But you go on the summer program and then you come back home.

And you're like, bro, dang, just like you with Young Life Camp, right?

And to a small degree, I think oftentimes that's church nowadays, but it's Sunday and you show up on Sunday, and you got the boom, the big production, you got the boom, the big band, the boom, the great teaching.

And then the rest of the day, you're just kind of chilling.

And I think about that a lot in context of conversations.

We often think whenever people judge social connection and loneliness, they're like, how many best friends do I have?

How many life-changing conversations did I have this week?

But really, the more you look into the research, all of those small interactions, just acknowledging people, doing a little bit here, a little bit there, that's what sustains you.

Right.

You need to have the other relationships.

Right.

Can I say a few things?

Yeah, it sparked…

Yeah, I think that's…

That was one of the key things, because I think a lot of…

If you set your life up, specifically around Christianity in a way that's all about these heightened experiences, I mean, it's not sustainable.

And it sets up…

I think it can set up almost like false expectations of what the Christian life is actually meant to be about, because a lot of the real things in our lives that make or break us happen, not in these big moments, right?

It's how do I love my wife?

How do I spend my time?

How do I take care and serve the people around me?

Really, how do I live when no one's watching?

And so, you know, when we have this opportunity to be present in a community, in a way to...

When we have an opportunity to be present in a community, you know, whatever that looks like, you know, if it's about putting our best foot forward or putting on a show, you know, it's about presenting yourself, you know, it's just not authentic.

It's not authentic, it's not real, that can lead to issues.

And so, not to say that...

Yeah, I totally think that there are times and spaces where God certainly can use those moments, and He could use larger gatherings of people to come together to encourage, to help other people know and understand who He is.

But I would say that it's not the sustainable every day, it's not the mundane.

And that's usually where people have the biggest struggles.

Right.

Like, why do I keep watching TikTok?

I have something I need to do.

It's fun.

Why do I keep watching porn?

Why do I keep eating sugar?

Why do I keep looking at this TV?

You know, like, all that stuff, it keeps popping up.

It's not just Sunday.

It's, and I kind of feel, sometimes I feel a little fiery about this idea of I'm going to pay for, I'm going to pay six grand for two months away for, like, spiritual development.

And then, like, like, we know programs that are like that.

I think part of that is cool.

I probably need to take more of a stance just for my sake.

Because then you just come back.

And there's this idea of vacating and recreating.

Some people will leave what's going on, then come back to the dragon that's grown more, and then they have to address a bigger issue, or you deal with it where you're at.

Yeah, and I think it's interesting because if that's...

If that is where you grow the most, which those environments can really be growth-oriented, because you're hyper-focused.

They can switch you over or something like that.

They're hyper-focused.

You've got other people there who are as dedicated as you are.

I mean, of course, it's a petri dish for growth, and that's why those environments exist.

I think, in my opinion, one of the missteps is that we've created those out of the mundane.

And so what would it look like just to create those right here in Lawrence, Kansas or wherever you are to create community in a way that's just as committed, just as excited and just as ready to have those experiences in the everyday throws of life?

Because I believe that if you can figure that out, your ability to thrive throughout all of life, because as you learn, as you grow older, you're going to bump up against the responsibilities and the complexities that come with life.

And you're not just going to have the availability that you had when you're 18 or when you're younger to do some of those things.

And so, if that's kind of the primary vehicle that you've learned how to walk out your faith, it's going to be pretty disruptive in the transition into a career.

And I see this, and we've talked about this, like one of the things that really was a catalyst for me to when I was living in Manhattan to move to Kansas City was I was watching a lot of my friends who were very serious about their faith in college transition into their career years.

And it was a new environment, new set of responsibilities, new level of focus that they didn't have in college.

Nobody was holding their hand.

There weren't all these external structures and infrastructure to help them along.

And I watched a lot of them who I thought were super faithful individuals in the right setting struggle and even some kind of punt what they knew because of just the transition of the new environment.

And so, that was kind of another part of the story of wanting to be in a position to not see that happen, you know, just because nobody was giving an alternative solution that, you know, the college doesn't just have to be the glory days.

Like, you can still live a vibrant Christian life even in the post college, even as you're navigating career and marriage and family and all these things.

Of course, there's a lot more competing aspects for your time and your thoughts and your energy, but that doesn't mean you have to, or that it's not, you're not capable of having justice of an impactful life as you once did.

You always see it, people graduate college, they go work somewhere.

If they're lucky enough, they have a support system, if not, they have to build it.

But then they're trying to figure out a career and they're also trying to figure out how to live out of a dorm for the first time and dealing with homesickness and all those aspects.

But one thing that I've been thinking of lately is I think a lot of people spend a lot of time at church and then they leave the church, maybe they go move to a different church, and they're like, man, I really don't have that many friends there.

And I feel like a big reason why is sometimes when we start going to church, very quickly after going to church, we join a team.

Okay, host team, greeting team, production team, worship team, you name it.

And while we're there, we're thinking about our team.

And I think it's really, I love being able to be a part of the team.

But whenever you look back after all of the years you spent at the church, you're like, I've spent so much time with this person, but I don't really know him.

And I asked the question, when you were spending time there, were you spending time to actually get to know this individual?

Or were you pushing the ball forward for the church team you were a part on?

Sure.

It makes me think of so many things that I have opinions about.

You know, why...

Well, one, when you said, go to church.

You know, I think that's one of the...

And it could be argued as a semantic thing.

But in the Christian faith, like, you don't go to church.

Oh, the church never starts or stops.

You are the church.

The church is God's people.

And so, inherently, when you set it up as the church is this part of my life that I attend...

And of course, there are meetings, you know, like even in our church, where there are meetings you go to.

You know, there's gatherings of people with intentional purposes that you attend, of course.

So someone could say that.

And it's, you know, again, that's why it could be.

More...

Like the corporate gathering.

And then, yeah, it gets into the intention of, you know, why you're there.

What's the point?

Are you there to...

I mean, yeah, and that really starts to drill down into every individual, you know?

And I think it's the church's responsibility, the people who are, you know, committed members of whatever that church is, is to welcome those people in and really get to know them and understand why are you here.

And to help to begin to educate them and train them on the nature of what it means to be a part of the community and what that's supposed to look like.

But if we, if the church or the leadership or the committed members also kind of see it as like, hey, we put on this thing and people come to it, then that also can have that same, you know, you're essentially like playing into the system that might perpetuate some of these things that could have some good outcomes, for sure.

And again, I think there are necessary parts where you, you know, you intentionally put on a meeting for a purpose and those can have good effects for people's lives.

But if that is all the basis of it, which I would hope for most, you know, at least other leaders in the Christian faith, I'm assuming that that's not the only intent, you know.

But that seems to be some of the fallout of some of those.

I mean, that, yeah, that begs into consumerism.

And what do you mean by that?

Consumerism?

Yeah, begs into consumerism.

Well, I think, I mean, just from when you look at our society in general, we would argue that we are a consumeristic society.

And so we approach things, whether it's communities or experiences or education.

I mean, it comes down to like, what is this going to get me?

What's how is this benefiting me?

And so, and of course, I think there's a natural aspect to all of our experiences where we want to, you asked that question.

And, but I think that that's been one of the helpful frameworks that I've seen that can be a healthy critique that, you know, the church is not meant to be a place just where you consume.

Mm hmm.

Yeah, you show up on Sundays and you get your film, then you leave, you know, and so being someone who didn't grow up in that environment, I understand, you know, if you grew up in those structures your whole life, I understand.

I have, like, empathy for why it might be hard to kick some of those, like, frames of thinking or perspectives, and I think, you know, that comes down to how we model that.

So, like, you know, in our context, you know, like you asked if we had a building, we don't have a building, but I'm not anti-building, and I'm not anti-at-large meeting, you know, but those will always, in my mind, exist to support the smaller gatherings.

Of intentional fellowship, where, you know, real life can happen together, and so, from my experience, as some churches kind of go big to work small, and, you know, it's just it's my intent to kind of go the opposite direction is to work small to go big, but the big structures will always exist to support the small is your vision.

Starting from small groups, and those small groups get so robust and rich that they get so big that you have to break into two, and then those two get so big and robust and rich that you have to break into four, and eight, well, you're the communication and these social expert here.

So, I'm assuming you understand the social capacity of relationships, and there are just social dynamics where groups of people get so sizable, where you can't, you no longer can relate and manage them in the way that they once were, you know?

And so, I can't remember what the...

Yeah, this is the idea of multiplying small groups to be so big.

Well, I'm thinking of the social theory.

What's the social theory of like...

Dunbar's number?

1272...

Yeah, Dunbar's number.

Yeah, so I think the concept of like what our vision is, is to succinctly, I mean, to put ourselves in a position where we can welcome in those who've maybe had no experience, or, you know, be in a position that's a little bit different than the typical Christian church, for people really to come into relationship with the church, and by relationship, meaning like the actual people, and, you know, have to wrestle through the what God says.

And so, yeah, I think right now, our hope is, yeah, that we would kind of organically grow, and God would bless that, and as we're faithful and we're raising people up, and, you know, we'd be able to at some point, you know, yeah, multiply groups, because there would get to a point where it would be unmanageable for everyone to, to know everyone and know them at an in-depth way.

And so I think that part of the Christian experience is that people would have really close intimate relationships.

So yeah, small enough to care, but like big enough to have impact.

And then I think, you know, as those groups grow and multiply, you know, the hope would be that there would be unity around larger endeavors together in the city.

What's your thought on whether people should join men's groups, co-ed groups?

Yes.

Yeah.

What do you mean?

Do you think one's better than the other?

Family groups?

I guess I'm not really...

Or generational groups?

Yeah, I was talking to a mentor of mine today.

And there are some...

How do I put this?

I don't have this thought fully formed.

So you're asking what do I think of people joining groups?

I think that's great.

Well, I know people who are my age.

They'll be younger than me.

We'll say 25.

And there's a young adults group at their church.

But then there's also a men's group at their church.

Okay.

And then there's a family group at their church.

And they're like, well, I'm a young adult, but I also want to learn from men.

And I'm also curious about like...

Yeah.

I mean, I think the historic...

So that would be the strategy of the church to set groups up in a way that are more filtered by demographic or...

Category of some sort.

Some kind of shared stage of life, et cetera.

I've always been a fan.

Now, I think some of that makes sense.

When you're in college, typically, you want to be around your peers.

Pragmatically, when you're a young family, a lot of the way that life happens, it's like typically you find yourself around other young families.

But instead of reasoning out, why I love the home church structure is because it doesn't reason out from how does this fit in my life, but it's really, hey, there's this general command of how to do life together.

And so how do I go find a group of people who are committed to that, whether they're in college, whether they're old, young, you know, married, single, young family, empty nesters, I mean, at the end of the day, I think if you can get people who are rallied together around the mission of helping people come to know God and love each other, I don't think it matters what stage of life you're in.

Now, I do think that there are some aspects to it of effectiveness, just because, yeah, I mean, college students want to stay up late and hang out till 2 a.m.

And if you have like a newborn, that's going to be a lot more like challenging for you.

So there are some natural ways of how you set that up in a way that's going to fit how you do life together.

But I think that, yeah, so I'm kind of more under the, but like within our, like even within our church, like we do have a guys group, you know, because there's something effective that happens when a group of guys gets together that, you know, can be intentional.

And, you know, when the ladies get together and there's just something that happens, I think, when you can get with the same sex and be able to work out, you know, issues and grow together and grow deeper and be in those kind of relationships.

So but I think as far as how groups are set up, I mean, that, I think that's kind of all over the board for different churches.

So it's hard to say and speak to.

What would you say the most effective structure, in your opinion, would be like an intergenerational group that is all different seasons alive?

I'd say the most effective is a group of people who are committed to the things of God.

And it had nothing.

It has nothing to do with if you play soccer or basketball, or old or young.

You know, like, I think, you know, if you're faithful to living out the principles that God has put into, I mean, you look at the Book of Acts, I'm sure that there, you know, you didn't have people who had all of these, like, I mean, yeah, it's like a modern privilege that we can, like, break up in all these, like, groups in a very unique way, you know?

It's like, usually, it was like your family, totally, your village of 60 people, right?

You didn't have much of a, you didn't have the privilege to, you know, move away or have all of these, you know, so some of those are like modern, modern day issues.

Yeah, that's a good way to put it.

I have this with the church, oftentimes modern church, you'll have big production, big worship, you walk in, there's teaching, there may be a brief moment where there's announcements and then you leave.

And whenever you're there, like it fills your cup for sure, and you worship and stuff.

But I do not think that you're going to be able to have deep friendships unless you hang out with those people that you meet at church outside of church.

And I think that is one of the most common misunderstood realities of building community at church.

I think the function of groups is that, is you get to leave outside the church building, see one another and live life together.

Yet even still, I find myself seeing and hearing from a lot of people who are saying, maybe I've been to this church or I've been to that church, I don't feel like I have the friendships that I need that are supporting me.

It's like, you're going to have to hang out with these people outside of the church.

You're going to have to do it a lot.

You're going to have to be intentional about scheduling with planning.

Just because you go to church doesn't mean you're going to find healthy community.

And that's kind of a sad reality for some churches.

Yeah, I think that all comes down to the ethos that you create.

Like, is it on the individual to make that happen, or I think it's on the church, you know, and the leaders to set, to set the ethos, set the culture of what the expectations are of relationship, you know.

And, um.

And there's so much more that goes into that, because a lot of that can come down to your value system, your expectations, how things are set up, what your experience is, you know, and that's why, you know, I would love for everyone's primary experience to be in a real tight-knit fellowship that's still well-led and still intentional.

And then those larger gatherings and whatnot can be kind of a, you know, a cherry on top, a support structure, you know, but the cake is really in the fellowship.

The icing is, you know, different aspects to body life.

So what would you say to a church of 4,000 people?

How do you build that culture or create that culture?

I mean, I guess the answer, I think I've asked you this before, it's like, well, hopefully it starts before it gets to 4,000.

Yeah, it would definitely need to.

But yeah, I mean, I think.

Because people who move to new cities, they go to big churches most, most commonly.

Sure.

Sure.

Yeah.

And they're easy to find, they're accessible.

Yeah, because there's a lot of people going there, you're probably more likely to run into someone at the coffee shop or someone, you know, but that being said, it's still very hard because the church is so big.

Right.

Well, yeah, I think the structure, I mean, yeah, I think it still comes down to the prioritization of, I think churches of all sizes can have problems within community, as well as can have successful journeys within community.

So I think that, right, it still comes down to no matter how big or small, how intentional that group of people are in being effective and how you, right, probably predominantly how you got there is going to at least determine some of the ethos, and that's going to be, you know, woven into your people kind of inherently.

And so, if those places are, or if cultivating intentional, if cultivating spaces for intentional community is kind of an afterthought on the front end, yeah, just expecting that all of a sudden it's going to, like, become a priority for everyone is, I think, is naïve, you know, it's, like, well-wishing, you know.

And so, I think the responsibility is, yeah, how do you do that as well as you can with, you know, what you have?

But yeah, I mean, I think the goal for any Christian is that, you know, people have real intentional fellowship and experiences within friendships, you know, within their church, you know.

But I also was influenced by, like, a church that predominantly, like, the big overarching organization.

Most people don't even have, like, too many…

I mean, it kind of comes down to, like, where is your primary experience of the church?

If it's on Sunday, that's going to shape you in a particular kind of way.

If it's with a small group of people, that's also going to inform you, and you're thinking around how does this work.

And so, how do you get someone to prioritize one over the other is probably going to be predominantly in their experience of it.

And so, if the priority and all the time and energy of the church goes into putting on the show or the thing or the service or the meeting, then that's where you're predominantly probably going to get what people's concept of what it means to be a part of that.

Church.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, give me a loose guidebook for a young adult who moves to a new city after college and they want to find community.

Man, that's a tough question.

I mean, it really depends on what city you move to.

We had a couple from our church who moved to Denver, and it was very challenging for them.

You know, they had really good community here, and trying to, you know, replace what they had just, well, one, was going to be not possible because they had so many close relationships.

They had both made personal decisions for Christ in our group, like in our, you know, so they didn't know, didn't have a personal walking relationship with God before they entered in our community, and our church, you know, isn't set up like most Christian churches are experientially in some ways.

And so some of that's like just having to get over some of the like norms that they weren't necessarily like the rhythms that other groups had that other churches had that were unlike ours.

But yeah, I mean, they've had a hard time because I think that the common experience is that it's been difficult for them to find good community.

And so you're asking me for the roadmap.

I mean, I think it's like, hunt or go build it, you know?

Like if God's actually calling you to go to a new city, part of that is like, find a good church, find a faithful church, and if there's not good fellowship going on of highly committed relationships, then go to the leadership and ask if you can start that and try to lead that out, you know, and try to start rallying people to that.

That'd be my suggestion.

That's how I would approach it.

But not everyone's gonna like have that same like, that's the yeah, get after it mentality, you know.

And so I think that's also part of it, too.

It's like, yeah, we we listen to a similar quote, where it's like, you know, you're not just going to find community, you actually have to build it.

Big misconception that you're going to find community.

And you can find people, you can find people who are interested in the same things you're interested in.

You can find people who look like you.

You can find people who share the same faith as you, the same soccer team.

And they also are the youngest of four siblings.

But you're not going to stumble into a healthy community.

You are going to have to very intentionally, just like you build a big Lego playset Lego by Lego by Lego by Lego, before you can step back and see what you've created.

I think that I think that's incredibly important to talk about.

I think a huge, if you're moving to a new city as a young adult, really just in general, you need to set a landing pad for yourself.

Whenever you leave an organization, they call it an exit strategy.

You want to make sure you leave well, you're not screwing people over.

You don't slam the door, you shut the door.

That way, if you ever need to reopen the door, you reopen the door.

Just like you are leaving a community, you make sure you let everybody know.

You hang out with people, you tell them how blessed and honored they made you feel.

But as you're doing that, you're looking into the next city.

Like you said, it matters where you're going.

If you're going to Denver, you are looking at churches, you are asking your pastor, do you know any churches in Denver?

Sure.

You are talking to all of the people who you're close to.

Do you know people in Denver?

Do you know what are the best restaurants in Denver?

Have you ever been to Denver?

You are looking up online.

Do they have a soccer league in Denver?

Do they have a community workout facility where I'm moving?

It's like a very practical approach.

It's not sexy.

It is does not feel organic at all.

It's essentially the idea of you have to download the dating app to start swiping.

I'm not really down with dating apps for most of the time because I don't really think they work that much.

Until I hear a really compelling story of when it does work.

I'm like, wow, that's super cool.

And I'm thinking of a couple right now who did it, and I'm really proud of them.

But they were very intentional about it.

If you're not intentional through dating apps, it's not going to work.

But I'm getting on a sidetrack here.

It's like, we can go down that rabbit hole.

Right.

I'm getting on a rabbit hole here.

But whenever I think of a roadmap, like as you were talking, I was thinking about that.

Like whenever I moved to North Carolina, I put up a Facebook post and I said, I'm moving to Winston-Salem, North Carolina.

If you know anybody in that general area, please connect me with them.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's a good strategy.

You know, put yourself out there, make yourself known that you're going to that place.

No, put yourself out there because you said hunt and you said build.

And you don't mean hunt, like go shoot it out.

You mean going out there and intentionally looking through the forest, aka the social infrastructure, aka the city that you moved to, and find places that you're going to fit naturally.

And you have to do that.

Same thing with churches.

Whenever you show up to a church, you're saying, oh, hey, you seem nice.

Here's what I'm interested in.

Do you know other people here that are interested in that?

And then they can connect you.

And I think it, yeah, I think it can reveal...

It can expose how much of a real priority relationships are to you.

And so I think that you can get really comfortable if you've been in a group of friends or in a community for a really long time, you know, and you...

You know, it's like when you're, I mean, when you're in a marriage.

Not that you don't have to try, but it's very different.

You're not, there's no, you're not in an evaluative process, or hope you're not an evaluative process anymore of like, is this gonna work?

You're, it's like, no, this is it.

Like I'm in it.

And so when you've had that experience, when you've been in a community, like, you know, this is, these are my people.

I'm committed to this group of people.

I'm committed to the mission that we're on together.

And then yeah, when you relocate, you know, you have to ask the question, like, I think, you know, there's so many layers to that.

Like, why?

Why are you relocating?

You know, is it out of necessity?

Is it something potentially misplaced values, good values?

I mean, I think being, evaluating that and then, you know, being ruthless to understand the level of prioritization that, you know, I think, you and I would both contend how important relationships are.

And oftentimes, people make decisions to exit relationships, and they don't know the fallout that's coming because they're not setting themselves up for success.

And sometimes, they're exiting for good reasons, maybe not so good reasons, maybe just whatever their reasons are.

But yeah, they could not be setting themselves up for success, and it's one of those things that you don't know the fallout of it until you're in it.

And then, that's a whole other can of worms.

Relational disposability.

I had Omri Galat on Social Psychologist from Israel, and he studies this concept of, we view relationships as things we can just kind of toss out and replace, like a dry erase marker.

Once it dries up, we can get a new computer, a new community.

If I move to Memphis or Nashville, I'm going to do it because I get 10,000 more dollars.

Whatever I have here, I can just rebuild.

But something that's been put on my heart lately is I want people to know how much their community is valued to them whenever they're with their community rather than whenever they're removed from their community.

Because a lot of people leave, they move, and they show up, and they're at this house by themselves, and they really miss people, which is natural.

Reactive loneliness, it's a reaction to a transition.

But then they're like, man, that group was actually really valuable to me.

And I want people to recognize that when they're with the group.

And I know it's hard.

They say, what, separation or distance makes it hard to go find her.

Or like, we don't have what we had until it's lost.

Like, there's those phrases.

But I challenge people.

Do the best that you can to assess and actually appreciate the value of the people in your life whenever you're there.

Because that's going to help you so much because it's going to give more gravitas to whenever you are leaving.

Because you're like, oh, my gosh, these people mean so much to me.

It's going to take me a really long time to get to some semblance of this.

I need to be intentional about it.

Yeah.

And maybe you can't recreate it.

Yeah.

You like the guy who moved to Denver.

He's kind of screwed because he's not going to make that decision, that first time decision again.

Like, he's not going to have that same moment in Denver.

So if that's your frame, nothing's going to fit.

So I think you have to kind of make peace with the decision that, yeah, how you build going forward is going to look different.

But yeah, I mean, there's also room for, and I'm not necessarily applying that to that specific situation, but there can always be room for we make mistakes as humans.

Yeah, and prove it.

And so sometimes we leave communities when we shouldn't.

And sometimes we leave communities when we should.

And sometimes we stay too long.

Well, that's an interesting...

What do you mean?

How would someone stay too long in a community?

Think of the smaller model of an abusive relationship.

Well, sure.

If there is something unhealthy about it, I guess I'm only thinking in the context of healthy situations.

But yes, if you're in a toxic relationship...

And you stick around too long, it hurts you.

Yeah, certainly.

Yeah.

I'm thinking about people move, they go to a big church, and whenever they're thinking about, I need to build community, they have this list that they need to do, but there's only one thing on there, and it's go to church.

And it's like, no, you need to do more than that.

And honestly, I know you talk about the church, it's on the ethos of the church, people should show up to the church, and then they're like, boom, all right, we're going to make sure you have community.

What's your name?

Let me get you connected with somebody.

And I hope that for them, whenever people leave and they go to church, but your list needs to be longer than that for building community.

It needs to be much longer than that, and you need to be connected with things outside of the church.

But overall, it's like an action step.

There's next steps.

And I really loved what you said.

You won't be able to recreate your community.

Like, I won't be able to find another Sean Richards.

Sure.

I can find someone who looks like you, but are they going to have the knowledge you have?

Doubt it.

How would they?

Right?

Sure.

Because you have a lot, and you have an incredibly relational strength to you, and a growth mindset.

So if I move, and I'm trying to put that circle on that square hole, it's not going to work.

So one, you have to build community.

Two, you can't recreate your community.

And three, by the time you get to the point to wherever you actually notice you recognize you have community, your life's going to be much different.

Right.

Yeah.

So I think it really matters.

This is really a, it's a hard topic to talk about, because I think if I was to talk to someone, you would want to know a lot of information about the context in which they're coming from.

Right.

Yeah.

So if you were coming from a good community, I think, you know, there's a level of which you have to mourn what you came from.

Right.

It's like a good relationship.

Like until you can move on to be in another healthy relationship, you're most likely going to need to spend some time, you know, honoring and mourning like what you had.

So you can move forward.

Yeah.

And solitude.

Now, if you are in a dysfunctional relationship, you probably picked up some things from that relationship that you're going to try to, you know, heal from and leave in the past.

And shed and celebrate.

And not, yeah, not take with you.

You know, so it really comes down to the individual and every situation and the context of it.

Because, yeah, you may not have the same community, but if you're always looking backwards to be like, oh, if I could only just have that group of people here, well, then, you know, you're all you're going to do is, you know, just look in the past and wish it was.

Yeah.

And it's like, well, that's not going to get you any closer to having that created in the present.

Right.

You know, I mean, of course, you could take the things of what made that group special, what made that community special, and how can I like help be a part of recreating that?

And I think that's a benefit of the church is we get to have the same standard, the Bible.

And it's like, oh, the fruits of the spirit.

OK, I want somebody who's joyful and patient and peaceful.

Like, I want those traits in individuals.

So I'm going to seek out those traits.

That way I can have a community that's a part of that.

Another thing is people will leave communities, and they'll be like, don't worry.

It's not even like I'm leaving, really.

We'll talk on the phone so much.

We'll FaceTime so much.

But I was looking at this research, and it was looking at the...

Everything's different.

Like, one, there's two research.

I'll quickly share two studies.

One, we use different parts of our brain.

When we're talking face-to-face, than when we're talking on screens.

So, just neurologically, the phenomenon's different.

That community that you had face-to-face, you're no longer experiencing that, even if you're on the phone.

Like, I'm all about digital connection with phone and FaceTime.

I think it's much better than nothing.

And really, I think it's decent in maintenance.

But as far as sustenance, all of the cues that we get from face-to-face interaction are irreplaceable and they won't be beat.

The second thing is that it's actually draining, more draining over the phone, because there's different delays and all of the non-verbal cues I get from you.

And knowing like your feet are over there and you just pulled your earphone thing, like all of that in my head, I take that and my microprocessor and my brain is constantly processing that.

And it's robust.

It's full.

It energizes me.

So if you think you're going to move and your life's going to be the same because you can just call and FaceTime the people, it's not.

It's going to be much different.

And there's this verse in Proverbs.

It's like a friend near is better than a brother far away because proximity matters.

Yep.

You know, Jenny Allen to find your people?

Yeah, yeah, I'm familiar with her.

Like building the village.

She always talks about building a village with people who are close to you.

And I've gotten pushback on this because I said this in a previous episode because someone told me, like, I think as long as you guys are consistent and intentional, then there's still a great friendship.

And I agree.

I think consistency and intentionality with just about anything whenever it comes to talking with one another is going to help build or sustain what you have.

Wait, where was the controversy?

I'm curious.

With someone I know near and dear told me that they disagreed with me.

Of what?

What was the disagreement?

That someone proximal...

Welcome to hot takes.

A friend proximal is better than brother far.

Like this idea of proximity matters so much that it can almost make up for quality of relationship if people are far away.

Interesting.

And I think that the upside...

Why do you think they challenged you?

Because they identify their best friends as being far away.

And I think it may invalidate something.

It feels as if they're invalidated because they don't have that much local support.

Right.

Yeah.

Can I speak to that?

Let me say one thing.

Okay.

So people...

Okay, no, you should go because I'll go on another rant.

Okay, so when I was 19, I had an experience where I did a summer training program.

Anyway, walked out of that experience.

It was like a camp experience, right?

It was just another iteration of, you know, eight guys living together for a summer in a room.

And, you know, it was this group of 16 people, eight guys, eight gals, you know, all best friends having time of our lives, serving together, staying up late, having fun, all this stuff.

And, you know, one of those relationships, a lot of those, I've maintained a lot of those relationships, but one of those relationships came out with my best friend Will.

And I still say my best friend Will.

Now, me and Will, we text and we talk right now sparingly.

You read my mind.

But he's still my best friend.

Now, are we currently in each other's lives in a way where we are each other's current best friends, like on a technical level?

Probably not.

I probably have technically better friends than him, but he still holds that seat.

He was the best man at my wedding, alongside my brothers.

And the reason why is because I remember when I was a junior in college and he was a senior, he was, maybe I was, anyway, I challenged him and I was like, let's be best friends.

And he was like, let me think about it.

But I was like, we're gonna, like, let's just like, let's just like never, let's commit now to never not being friends, no matter what, no matter the circumstances, no matter the distance, no matter the what.

And ever since then, you know, he moved to New York for a while.

He lives now.

He lives more closely in proximity.

He lives in Kansas City.

And, you know, we could pick up the phone and talk about anything in our lives, you know.

And so the quality of our relationship, you know, has oscillated, you know.

I guess the point of telling that story is, though, that, like, he kind of holds, like, a position in my life.

But I don't depend on him in the same way that I would need, you know, consistently.

And also, our friendship really is this unique thing because I have friends where we're, like, working on projects together.

Like, whether it's...

You and him?

No, no, no.

The other friends.

Like, other friends, like, you know, like people in my church who are, like, my closest friends right now.

Like, we are in the trenches of life together, you know, helping raise kids and...

Yeah, so why aren't they your best friends?

Oh, they are.

Or why hasn't he lost that spot as the best friend?

I mean, it's just, it's a position that, like, we agreed to, you know?

So it's exclusive.

Are you in that spot for him, you think?

I mean, we could ask him.

Yeah.

But I mean, I would imagine, yes, I would imagine so.

Yeah.

But I wouldn't say that...

I don't know what that looks like for him.

His journey of community and work and family has looked different than mine, but I would definitely think so.

I would definitely think that we are in a certain earthquake happening.

Yeah.

I think we're...

It's funny.

Typically, I cut this, but I won't because...

But you'd say you'd think so.

So there's this book called Just Friends, and they did this research study where they would get you to sit in the chair, and they'd ask these questions about friendship.

And one of the questions they'd ask you is, who's your best friend?

And you would say...

What was his name?

Will.

Will.

And then I'd say, all right, Will.

But I would say he's one of my best friends.

Sure.

So then you give me Will and then the other guys.

I'm like, boom, I write them all down.

And then these researchers called Will and the other guys, and they said, who's your best friend?

And guess what?

A lot of times, it wasn't the same person.

And then whenever they told the person, hey, Sean said you're their best friend, they said, really?

You serious?

And some of them said, I'm surprised.

Like, I would have never guessed that.

Right.

And what it shows, and this is something that's a little controversial, is that best friendship does not have to be reciprocal.

Interesting.

Yeah.

And one of the things, the reason why I think like you and many other people, I just had a wedding, not one of the people on my wedding I met in Lawrence.

Like all of my guys next to me, Oklahoma, in North Carolina, one guy from North Carolina, my brother-in-law, who's family, and then all these guys from Oklahoma.

I haven't lived in Oklahoma in years.

Right.

But like, we have these people who we agreed to be best friends with, and it was exclusive, and like we hold them and hold them.

And it's controversial to say, but I don't think that friendship has to be like, because I think you should have best friends.

Do you think you need to be exclusive best friends?

I think you should have best friends, no matter whether.

I think you should have present day best friends and old best friends.

Right.

And chronologically, it doesn't have to be all in one time.

Yeah, but I think if you are currently in a position where you don't have any best friends, that you should find them.

And you mean proximal to you in your current state?

Correct.

They should be present in your life in a day to day format.

Yes.

Because you can always text the guy in Oklahoma who was your old best friend.

Yeah, I could call Will up.

Call Will right now.

Yeah, straight up.

And y'all would chop it up.

Yeah, we'd have such...

Yeah, he would know me, and our connectivity would be unique and different than anyone locally right now.

But I think we should always be holding the consistent of quality relationships.

We should have top quality relationships in our lives that are active, that are, whether they're from the past, but I think they certainly should be in the present.

So if you and Will can chop it up, and like you said, that connection is there.

If he said, oh...

I'm trying to think of this.

Basically, the angle I'm approaching right now is for those people in the research study who said, blank is my best friend, and then they went and asked blank and it wasn't actually his best friend, or it wasn't their best friend, that doesn't take away any of the meaning-making or rewards or fulfillment that that person has.

Yeah.

And I find that as a hurdle and obstacle for some people because they don't want to get in deep friendship unless they feel like it's an exclusive best friendship, unless they feel like, okay, hey, you're my best friend, I'm your best friend.

Blah.

Like, unless you have the hangover, right?

Like, the four guys and you make movies together.

And I think that's great, but I think that sometimes we psych ourselves out and prevent ourselves from getting social fulfillment because maybe it's not 100% reciprocal.

Yeah, what's interesting?

There's a way for you to make this point, but I'm not doing it the most succinctly.

Well, I'm curious, yeah, like, what's the...

What's like the big impact, like the action step or the main takeaway here?

Yeah, what's the main takeaway?

Yeah, so distilling it down to one point is that we...

Because I guess...

So we as human beings, you've heard of extrovert and introvert, so that's a sliding scale based off of our comfort with openness to experiences in the social setting.

Some people are very extroverted, they're very comfortable in like big open settings, and then we charge differently.

Some people have social batteries where they go out there and they charge in solitude, other people in solitude, they drain, and they need to charge out there.

So that's just like our social ability.

But then in friendship building, whenever you go from social ability to adding another person in there, we build friendships at different rates.

Some people are like you and me, I maybe think, oh man, Sean and I are super tight.

And you're like, you know, I'm still getting to know Chris.

And that's our culture, that's our background, that's a lot of different things that comes in there.

And we may, at a different rate, come to a conclusion, oh, this is a really great friend of mine.

And I don't know if you've ever been in a moment like this, but it's almost like this awkward moment where maybe someone says, oh yeah, he's like a best friend of mine.

And you're like, oh, I don't know if I would have called you that.

We're dating.

Yeah.

We are?

I don't remember that.

I don't remember that conversation.

And it's okay if there's not complete eye to eye right there.

Like, because people progress differently.

And especially like that's most people's experience, though.

Like, I feel like there's everybody who's listening.

That's a big statement.

I feel like everybody who's listening can attest to at least one instance where that's happened in their life, where they felt like they were either closer or more distant in a friendship than they actually were or than the other person reported.

Yeah.

And I feel like maybe people get bummed out by that.

But the knowledge that people progress in friendship differently is really helpful because it sets you up.

And one of the big things with anything dealing with any social setting is expectation violation.

We have expectations of how things are going to go.

And when they're violated, we get bristled.

It hurts us.

It irritates us.

There can be psychological pain.

So one of the best things to do is to inform your expectations.

And I'd like to inform everybody's expectations that people progress differently in friendship.

So don't feel too bad if you call someone a best friend and they're like, oh, you know, I'm not there yet.

That's OK.

As long as you're getting that social fulfillment from them, you feel supported.

That's what matters.

Interesting.

I feel a bit fiery with some hot takes because I have a lot of incredible long distance friendships.

On the daily, I got guys throughout the country like I love my guys in Texas.

I love my guys in Oklahoma.

I love my guys in North Carolina.

I'm incredibly faithful to them as friends and they've been so supportive to me and they helped me out so much.

And that being said, I want a best friend in Lawrence, Kansas.

Because the upside of having a proximal friend is so worth the risk compared to just having people who are far away that you're close to.

Sure.

Yeah.

And I think that's like, yeah, because of course, like, Will, to me, is like family now.

Like, he's like a brother, you know, like that kind of is like how it is.

Yeah, it's interesting.

Kind of want to psychoanalyze why, you know, like, that would be controversial.

Because I think at the end of the day, I guess my, if someone had an issue with that, I'm like wondering, I'm like, well, are we?

Yeah, are we really just maybe addressing the pain that you don't have that close those close relationships currently?

And the reason for that, I have no idea, you know, and it could be a number of reasons.

Like, maybe there's just no one available for you, or maybe it's you haven't made yourself available to create that.

Or you're not trying.

Yeah, or whatever the reason is, you know, it's like, it's not really the point of like having a problem with that take probably just has more to do with probably the pain of that not existing.

Yeah, currently, you know, in that person's life.

And so what I would what I would say is that like, well, let's hopefully, you know, I guess from a faith component, I would hope God would bring you opportunity to have that level of, you know, relationship and friendship, you know, in your current situation.

So, yeah, and get in this technically my best friend, technically, my best friend would be my wife, Lexi, come on.

And I'm glad I live with her.

And that's a huge thing.

I'm glad that like marriage is a huge thing for social connection and intimate loneliness is a very core part of how we experience life.

I was thinking about this conversation we were having today, and I was, this is a whole, this is another rabbit trail, so I don't know if we want to go down it.

But I was thinking like, yeah, is romantic relationship a good cure to loneliness?

I think that should you pursue, like if you're feeling lonely, should you try to fill that loneliness with romantic?

Ideally, no, and the ideally, no, but there are moments where it could work.

And we could have a whole podcast on loneliness and relationships.

And the reason why I say that is, I think the best situation is that you have a group of people who support you, and then you go off and you find your partner, and I think the big reason why is because people in our support groups, they're like trees in fall, and during the fall, all these colors come out.

And what these people do in community is the sun shines on these colors, and it makes it look really pretty.

So if you ever drive down the street during the fall in Kansas, at nighttime, it's scary, but during the day, it's beautiful.

And the people are the sun, so all this community brings this stuff out to us.

Oh, man, I'm funny now.

I didn't know I was funny, but I'm hanging out with this group like, Oh, well, I asked good questions.

Well, thankfully, there's all these people around me that reinforce that in me, and their skills, and I get to take those to the workplace.

But I also get to take those to my next partner.

And I think that that's definitely the most ideal.

Yeah, it's a complex question.

It's it's definitely if you are trying to cure loneliness through one relationship, and you won't be able to cure loneliness.

Right.

So if you are trying to co lessen feelings of loneliness, yeah, if you are trying to feel less lonely, feel less lonely, and you are trying to do that by getting in one one relationship, right?

It's not going to work.

I just don't think that's a good strategy.

You can transition me now.

Now I say it's not going to work.

Yeah, because I would think well into one.

Typically, if you are that one person's source of human connection, that's going to lead to dysfunction or an overdependence on you in a way that like.

So one of the best gifts I can give to my wife is having all these other relationships.

Right.

You being here right now allows her to go elsewhere.

Oh, yeah.

She's doing her thing and she's probably having a great.

It doesn't mean we wouldn't want to be together.

Sure.

You know, my wife went to Target.

Yeah, she was in a Target and I think but I think it's yeah, if I depended on any one human for to kind of be that everything that would be problematic.

And ultimately she couldn't live up to that.

And therefore I would put her in an unfair, unwinnable situation and then she probably also become the target of my angst of frustration.

And so I definitely think that so I would say a good sign of a good partner is someone who has good, lots of good relationships.

Yes.

And you'll hear great partners saying you need to go hang out with that person.

Right.

You need to go do that thing, because they also recognize that if we ever put ourselves in the position where the one person is the cure to blank, it could be loneliness, it could be whatever else.

We're doomed, right?

One last thing that I want to say.

You got another thing?

Yeah.

Where are we?

Are we are we right here?

We're about to land the plane.

Because we didn't even talk about what we thought we were going to talk about.

Right.

The cameras are going to overeat shortly.

Let me see how far we go.

That'll tell us.

Yeah.

Yeah, we got to land the plane.

One thing I do want to say, though, is I'm not discounting long distance friendships.

If you have a best friend who lives in a different state, that's incredible.

Keep nurturing that friendship.

Give them a call as soon as you finish this podcast.

Tell them you're thinking about them.

Check in with them, FaceTime them, cold call them.

Don't schedule the call.

Just call them straight up.

Say, Hey, I was thinking about you.

How you living?

Right.

And chat it up.

Chop it up.

And as you do that, though, be very intentional about that and be thinking like, man, what makes this person my best friend?

And the things that you think about, be it this person makes me laugh a lot.

This person asked me about my family.

This person is really helps me with my ambitions.

Like, think about those things and then ask yourself, Hey, I'm not going to be able to find this person in Kansas because they're in a different state.

But could I find someone who has similar like attributes like they don't have to be the same.

But there's a reason why we're best friends with certain people.

And I think that could be a great approach.

And then one last thing, if you hang out with your family a lot, that's awesome.

I think some people hearing this may be like, Man, I don't have a ton of friends.

You may get a ton of social connection from your wife or your husband.

You may get a ton from your boyfriend.

Like Sean and I were saying, that can't be the one and only.

It's a three part pie chart.

If you don't have one of them, then you're not complete.

You have to have friends.

You got to have a network, and you have to have intimate partners.

And intimate partner could be a best friend.

It doesn't have to be romantic.

So I wanted to quickly book in that.

You had to give your preface.

Yeah, my preface, because I know people who are like, bro, I have long distance friends.

Well, that's not the point.

The point isn't whether you have, if you have long distance relationships, great.

I fear that I'm invalidating them, and I'm not trying to.

No, you're not.

I don't think you are.

I think if somebody, I think again, if somebody is feeling invalidated, I think it's probably just due to the mourning of not having that level of friendship in the present.

And what I would say to that is that you have to work to recreate that, you know, like, because a lot of the times those relationships were built over shared experiences and things that, you know, levels of time that you can't just, like, get back.

But that doesn't mean you can't, you know, create that level of quality relationship.

It's just going to take work.

And, you know, that's anyway.

So I don't think anyone's being invalidated with, like, if you have, like, long standing relationships that are not in your proximity, great.

You should do what you can to keep those healthy and sustain those.

I think I'm just also a proponent of, specifically, like, if we're talking about the church and fellowship, like, I would hope, my great hope is everyone who's, like, in my church has, like, has a current best friend in their community with them, you know, someone they can...

In the church?

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, if they were, like, and it's, you know, it's, I've run into a lot of Christians who live in the same city, even this city, who they're best friends that they say, but they go to different fellowships, or they go to different...

And I'm like, what?

And it was like, and then I dig a little bit more into why that's the case, and there is no reason why.

And I'm like, what?

Like, that doesn't make any sense to me.

Why wouldn't you do...

Or at least what it expresses to me is maybe your idea of church is just very different than the way I would view it.

But it's like, why wouldn't you want to do life and God's mission together unless there was some kind of great discord or something that would like, you know, propel you to not do it that way?

Do you think it's cool to have best friends not in your church, in your proximity?

Certainly, certainly, but I think you think you have to have one in your church.

Have to is a strong term.

I think you should be you should be working towards having.

I think, yeah, my hope would be that your best friends are the people that you're doing life with.

Yeah, in the church.

Well, I think if you are a Christian doing life with people, it should primarily be the people that you're on mission with together at the same church.

Because like you and I may be at different churches.

But and I'm just pushing back a little bit.

One, because I want to further understand you, too, because it's a bit convicting to me because I want to say I have a best friend at my church.

But that's something I need to work on straight up.

Yes.

Yeah, I mean, that again, that's why I'm not saying these are like in absolutes.

I'm just saying from like a social experience, my hope would be that, and these are my leadership convictions around what I want people to be experiencing under my leadership.

Under my leadership, I would want them to be cultivating great, amazing relationships that if you have great present and amazing relationships, hopefully those people are also your best friend.

Right.

And you're seeing each other often and consistently.

That's the idea.

And you're on mission together.

I think that there is something to be said, and I know that we want to wrap up, but I think there's something to be said.

I don't know how on mission people feel together.

Like, man, not only is this good for me to have close relationships here, it's actually vital.

It's actually like the thing God commands, which is to live in the one another's, that you love one another, that you care for one another, that you forgive one another, that you have these deep, meaningful relationships in your fellowship.

And if you don't, I think that should beg the question of like, why is that the case?

You know, and I'm a clip that I'm a tag you in it, too.

I just think that's yeah.

And again, this is my hope.

Now, if someone's listening and they're like, man, that's not my experience.

You know, then again, it goes back down to what we said earlier about like, well, then, you know, if you're just treating it as something that's just going to be handed to you or fall in your lap, then you got to be a part of the building of it.

But at the same time, if the structure of your fellowship doesn't really facilitate that, then that is tough.

I think that that's kind of a culture and an ethos thing.

And, you know, my challenge to any leader or pastor would be, you should be as much as you can cultivating that in the experience of your people.

Because I think your church is only as strong as it is relationally, you know.

And so, you got a bunch of people coming to something where they don't know or like really anyone inside of it.

It's like, what do you really have then?

Like, I mean, maybe something people are cool to show up to, you know, like I can go to Target, and we can all go to Target.

Be there at the same time.

And everyone's there at the same time.

But no one knows the depths or the hardships or the pains or the goods.

You know, we're just sharing this common experience of going shopping together.

And it's like, that is not what the Christian church should be.

It should be something where it's like, no, we're going to our pub, and we're having this, like we're sharing together.

And there's going to be, you know, depth and growth.

And despite, you know, our unique experiences, you know, we're in it together.

So, and I think we need some more Sean Richards in the world.

I'm here.

Looking into cloning?

I'm not.

Well, everybody who's interested, unfortunately, we can't get a clone, but the relational aspect would be helpful if we could replicate that a little bit.

And I'm preaching to myself here.

I'll be straight up.

I keep saying that phrase straight up.

I don't really use that phrase for some reason tonight.

One time I had an interview, and it was for this big communications director job for a big municipality, and they were dealing with very serious stuff.

Yeah.

And I kept saying, no doubt in the interview.

Gwen Stefani.

Right.

I felt like Andy Samberg in Lonely Island saying, no doubt.

And I was nervous, I guess, so I kept going back to this phrase.

But this time I'm saying straight up.

But I am preaching to myself here about building a best friend.

You know, I look at some areas of my life and I'm like, man, I need to step it up.

But that's partially one, why I think about this stuff and why I talk about it.

And also, I know that we're all there.

And some of us may be further along than others.

But all it takes is for something to happen.

And before you know it, you feel lonely.

And loneliness is just like hunger.

It's a communicating to your body that something needs to change.

So we're not trying to get rid of loneliness completely because we need to know.

But what we are trying to do is listen and read and heed.

So listen and act accordingly.

Right.

Have vibrant relationships.

So much so that the experience of loneliness doesn't, like you said, it's like hunger pains.

It's like they're there for a good reason, but if they're showing up, it means that we're in a deficit.

And so hopefully we're living vibrant lives in a way where we're not running in a deficit.

And I know that, I guess I would say to everyone out there who is listening, if any of this struck a chord with you, I'd love to be a resource and a friend and help you navigate what that could look like.

Because everyone's experience of their social interactions is so dynamic.

And I think that, yeah, you can't just encapsulate it in one...

It's so dynamic because everyone's origin stories, everyone's backgrounds, how people have been shaped.

All of these things are so unique.

And so...

You're telling me I can't just make swooping statements on here?

You can.

People might...

I mean, I think having strong opinions, like, I definitely think, yeah, like, if you don't have...

If your closest friends...

If you are a Christian and you're in a church and your closest friends aren't in that church, I think you should explore why that is.

You think there's something wrong?

I think you should...

That's more of the strongest statement.

I think you should explore why that is.

Not strong enough.

There's something wrong.

I'm forcing you to take a strong stance, and you don't have to.

Well, there is...

I don't think inherently there's something wrong.

Yeah, but just explore.

I like that.

I like that action step.

He's going for that pizza.

Sonny is about to get this pizza.

So where can people find you if they want you as a resource?

I could give you my phone number.

Bro, have you not heard Podcast?

The last question is how can people find you and keep up with what you're doing?

I've been on some of those, yes.

But I'm on Instagram.

You're on Instagram.

I'll be sure to put your Instagram in the show notes.

Twitter, X.

You wouldn't give out your phone number like this, would you?

Certainly.

On this platform?

Why not?

What's your number?

785-313-5014.

All right.

Well, there you go.

Why wouldn't I give it out?

What do I do?

I think naturally people would be hesitant to share their number on the Internet.

If somebody, I just don't think I'm that like, if somebody felt from this conversation, the desire to reach out to me, I would want to be as accessible as possible.

And you saying that, I agree with you.

I would want to be as accessible as possible.

I agree with you because if they've made it to the end of this podcast, and they relate with that, and they made it to the end to hear that, then yeah.

Or they have more questions, or they disagreed firmly with what I had to say, and they wanted to have an honest dialogue.

I would be so down for that, you know?

So I think that, plus I talk to crazy people all day every day.

So I don't think any of your listeners are going to outmatch that.

Certainly not.

All right.

Well, thank you for being here.

Thanks for having me.

It was a pleasure.

It was a blast.

And, folks, we will see you next time.