#55: What Does Coffee Teach Us About Community, Friendship, and Entrepreneurship? [TRENT HOWARD]

And we are officially live, the Talk to People Podcast in the upstairs studio with one of my favorite people in the world, Mr.

Trent Howard.

Well.

How are you, my friend?

I'm doing really well, man.

That's kind of you to say.

I'm excited.

It kind of feels a little surreal being in the studio.

Because you've seen the majority of the episodes.

Yeah, I've been in it since the beginning.

And so as a fan, it's like, you know, you're a fan.

Imagine like your favorite TV show, Next Thing You Know.

Boom, you're there.

So this is kind of like the WWE for you.

This is it.

This is my big, this is my big thing.

This is my podcast premiere.

WrestleMania.

I don't really have much of a public platform.

So I'm really seeing this as my introduction.

I was even hoping maybe we could like, put in some like walkout music, maybe in the post, you know.

We'll do, what do you want to be your walkout song?

My walkout song.

What's that classical song is called?

Like the flower duet.

Like as long as it's copyright free.

Yeah.

I don't know if we could get that or we could get your attorney.

It sounds like you are, for those of us who don't know you first off, who is Trent Howard?

So who's Trent Howard?

That's a good question.

I'm just a 26-year-old guy who is Trent Howard.

That's such a big question.

Do you mean like you want like my resume?

You want like...

It's a funny question.

It's like, tell me about yourself.

Yeah.

Tell me about.

Okay.

So I'm 26 years old.

I own a coffee company.

So we have a cafe and a roastery.

We also do catering.

That's why I just kind of say coffee company because it's like, it is a coffee shop, but we started as a catering company in college and then we started a roastery and then we did a lot of wholesale.

And then now we have a coffee shop just over almost a year, actually.

A year in February will be the one year anniversary of our cafe.

Why do you own a coffee shop?

Why do I own a coffee shop?

So I guess I can kind of just run you through the whole story.

So in college, I was studying petroleum engineering, which doesn't really have anything to do with coffee.

So I went to school, I went to OU in Norman, Oklahoma, which has a great petroleum engineering program, and I chose petroleum engineering because I was good at math and it was the highest paying bachelor degree at the time.

I don't know if that's still true.

You wanted that money on.

I wanted that money.

So that's really the only thing that drove the decision.

I just wanted money.

I wanted to have more financial success, I guess I would say, than my parents and the previous generations of my family.

So neither of my parents went to college.

And so college was always a big goal of mine.

And I knew from an early age that if I was gonna go to college, I needed to get scholarships.

So I worked really hard, got scholarships, went to college for engineering, and then about halfway through college realized I didn't like petroleum engineering really at all.

Didn't really have any passion for it.

And so-

Was that a one-time event where you realized you didn't have a passion for it?

I think it, I mean, it was over time.

I think throughout like the semesters and taking these difficult classes and stressing and all the anxiety of like taking classes where they fail 40% of students, spending just hours and hours in the library.

So kind of realized I wasn't into that.

And at the time I was really involved in my local church.

And I was doing a lot of missions work.

So my freshman year, I got to go to India.

My sophomore year, I got to go to Mozambique.

I got to go to Mexico a few times, South Africa, traveling a lot.

Everywhere I went, people drank coffee.

And then in college, we spent all of our time at coffee shops.

So we're always studying at coffee shops, doing Bible studies at coffee shops, hanging out with friends on the weekends at coffee shops.

When we traveled to different cities, we'd always try to find the best coffee.

And so in this period of realizing I didn't really care about engineering and realizing that I didn't know if just working an engineering job was gonna be satisfying for me, like just kind of doing the cookie cutter thing, get a degree, get married, start a family, buy a house, work in an office.

I think I just realized that was kind of the goal that I was going for.

I'd created in my head that that was gonna be what would make me happy.

And then I was realizing that I didn't really care that much about that.

And so we started, me and a few friends, we're both kind of in, we were all three in a similar, I said both and then all three, there were three of us.

We were in a similar place in life where none of us were passionate about our majors.

We were all really involved in church and in community, and we wanted to find something to do together.

And coffee just kind of presented itself as an option where we were like, man, we spent all of our time at coffee shops.

So someone, I can't even remember who it is, but someone recommended looking into coffee roasting.

Because at the time, we had no idea about coffee roasting, but we knew we liked coffee.

So we started learning about coffee roasting.

And coffee roasting is more of a scientific process.

Like it involves a little more like, like you have to analyze temperature graphs and you have software that plugs into the roaster.

And me and my partner Carson, who was studying computer science, we loved that aspect of it.

So we decided to do that.

We studied coffee roasting.

We worked for a coffee roaster when we were seniors in college.

And then after that, we started the coffee company.

Wow.

Yeah, so that's the long story long.

What was the first move you made away from engineering and into coffee?

Yeah, that's a good question.

So I kind of realized this, I think between like sophomore, junior year, that I wasn't going to do petroleum engineering and we were going to potentially do this coffee thing.

But so I spent a few months in this place of like, should I drop out?

Should I change majors?

Because I could have changed to like a business degree and honestly would have been a lot easier.

I could have dropped out.

That was an option.

So I contemplated that a lot.

I felt like I should continue and get the degree.

I'd made it through a lot of the classes.

At this point, I had a decent amount of scholarship money so the financial burden of going to a large university didn't really exist.

It was kind of like a backup plan.

I was like, you know what?

I'll just keep the degree.

But we did start learning about coffee.

So when I was a senior, I worked for a coffee roastery in Oklahoma City almost as like an intern.

So I would do school all week, but on Mondays, I would go to Oklahoma City, which was only like 25 minutes away, and I would roast coffee with a coffee roaster there.

So we were learning everything, even while we were finishing the degree.

Wow, were you being paid for that?

No, no.

Dang, free.

And you were a deli clerk.

I was a, actually, I was a meat cutter at Sprouts the summer after my senior year of college.

Yeah, you have one of the cool stories because it's so funny, like you said, you go into business with two other people, all of you are getting degrees from this nice university in Oklahoma.

I know growing up in Oklahoma, everybody wants to go to OU.

That's the school.

And you're studying petroleum engineering, Carson's studying computer science, Joel's graphic design.

Now the three of you have this vision and this idea.

You graduate with the major where you can make the most money, and then you find yourself cutting meat at Sprouts and then moving or starting the coffee company, moving and making like not much money compared to your peers.

Not much at all.

In the early days, that was a real...

That was one of those things you lay in bed at night and you're just like, oh my gosh, because I have these friends getting 80, 90, $100,000 salary jobs straight out of college.

And I was living in a not so nice apartment in the Dallas area There were like rats around your...

Yeah, we had a mouse that was around a lot.

We gave him a nickname.

We gave him like a...

We did impersonations of him.

He was like, he had an accent.

He was like, hey, I'm Jerry or something.

Jerry?

We tried to catch him a few times.

So that was interesting.

So we were living in a small apartment.

And I was actually, when we first moved to Texas, we quickly realized that we were going to have to get second jobs because we weren't making any money from coffee roasting.

We were still in the renovation stage of getting the building up to code.

So everything's reinvestment at this point, right?

Yeah.

And so, and we had very little money to start with.

So I was actually doing valet parking at a hotel.

So I would wake up, we would work from like 7, 8 a.m.

to like 2, 3 in the afternoon at the coffee roastery.

And then I would drive about 45 minutes away to this nice hotel.

And I would do valet parking until like 11, 1130 at night.

So then I would drive home, go to bed around midnight, wake up, do it again.

And you were making tips at valet parking?

I was making tips.

Good tips?

Well, I was making, I mean, there was an hourly wage too.

I was making enough to survive.

What's the average shift as a hotel valet?

What's an average shift like?

Like how much money?

Oh, you're probably making between 15 to 19 an hour.

Okay, cool.

Working an eight-hour shift.

With tips.

Working, yeah, I think I worked around 3 to, 3 to between 11 and midnight.

So when you're thinking about your peers having 100 grand jobs, are you having regret?

I chose the wrong path.

FOMO, fear of missing out.

I think at certain points, all of it, yeah.

Yeah, especially, yeah, doing valet, working late.

And at the beginning, so the beginning of Moravian, which Moravian is the name of the coffee company, we moved, we signed a lease for this commercial, this commercial space.

It was around a thousand square feet.

And this is where we were going to put the rosterie.

And right after we signed the lease and we were like applying for permits and stuff, which we knew nothing about business.

The health department from the city we were in came and the health inspector looked at the space, took one look at it, she goes, this is not going to work for coffee rosterie.

It's like you would have to meet all of the specifications of a commercial kitchen.

You need to talk to your landlord.

You should see if you can get out of the lease or if he has other spaces available, but you're not going to be able to start your business here.

Then she leaves, gives us her business card, bounces.

So that was like our introduction to business and our introduction to DFW.

Like the Dallas area, we moved from Oklahoma.

We had never lived in a city that big.

We had no idea what we were doing.

And we had very little money.

And this lady came in.

I mean, we thought our dreams were pretty much over from week one.

We just all kind of sat there in shock.

So these are the kind of obstacles we were overcoming at the beginning.

So then you have a day like that.

Then you go park cars for seven hours.

And run back and forth through a parking garage.

Sprinting in the cold.

And then you go home and get in bed around midnight.

You're sleeping on a mattress that's on a floor.

You don't have a bed frame.

And you're thinking, oh my gosh, I could have just applied for engineering jobs.

Why not just start the coffee company in five years?

Why not just save all of my money?

So those things definitely came up, yeah.

Why not?

I think that me, Carson and Joel had committed to this being Plan A, the degrees being Plan B.

We felt like we were supposed to do this.

We had all agreed, we'd all like decided and agreed together that we were going to pursue this idea of starting a coffee company.

And so, in the low moments, I think we were like, we're going to ride this out until it crashes and burns, or we're going to suffer in the short term.

And we're going to just have some grit.

Has it been hard being in business with friends?

That's a good question.

You know, everyone always says don't go into business with friends.

And I think that's probably true for most people.

I think that we have a value system that we've built over a decade of friendship.

And even before we started the business, I think we had been friends for six, seven, eight years.

And so, we knew that people give that advice, right?

We knew that was like a thing.

Don't go into business with friends.

So we were almost like, we almost had a chip on our shoulders of like we're going to do it and we're going to make it work.

And I also think we have a value system of relationship, intentionality, love that we have as Christians where we really try to operate with a kingdom mindset that values people over possessions, over success, over all those other things.

And so, there were definitely difficult times at the beginning, like there were times when you get on each other's nerves, you disagree a lot, you have to learn how to do conflict.

But I think if you keep the priorities straight and you do prioritize relationship above the business, then I think it could be one of the most rewarding things you could do.

There's also a lot of pitfalls, right?

Like I understand why people give that advice because I can see where it can go terribly wrong.

Like I can see where it gets so hard to separate business from your personal lives, from your friendship, it gets so hard to overlook those things.

And then when difficulties come up in the business, it's so hard not to relationally.

And we've had moments of that where we've had to come to each other and be like, hey, I think it doesn't seem like we're doing well as friends even though we're with each other like eight hours a day.

We're with each other at work all day and then doesn't feel like we really want to be outside of that.

Then you have to really be like, oh dang, something's out of place here.

We're valuing something too highly or we're not being intentional with each other.

So every conversation is about work.

Then you realize like, I don't know how you're doing.

I don't know how you feel.

I don't know what your personal life is doing.

I don't know how your girlfriend, you and your girlfriend are doing.

And so making time for that has been important.

And some years, we honestly, some years we do better, some years we do worse.

Like this past year opening up the coffee shop was intense and there was a huge learning curve because we've never had employees.

We've never managed coffee shops.

we got to the end of the year.

We were like, we were kind of judging ourselves.

We were reflecting.

We were like, how did we do as friends this year?

And did we do a good job at prioritizing friendship?

And we all kind of agreed.

It was like, we could do better.

You know, we've seen each other a lot and we always have each other's backs and work.

And we see each other in group settings because we have like a community.

We all go to the same church.

So we'll see each other at events.

We'll see each other at all these things.

Parties, weddings, like Joel and Carson both got married this year.

We all had bachelor parties.

We had weddings.

We had all of these things.

And then at the end of the year, we were like, I don't know if we prioritize friendship.

But I feel like we do a good job at being honest with ourselves about that and course correcting periodically.

That's so intriguing to me.

Because you're right.

You can spend so much time with people.

Especially when there's a lot of overlapping, it stacks.

Business, church, group outings, similar friends.

Yet still asking that question, well, what's the quality of our friendship like?

That's a really mature conversation to be having.

I also think it's different depending on people, like what they need to feel connected.

So something I found like, I'm a quality time person, which means if I'm not spending time in either really small groups or one on one with someone, then it does not take long before I'm like, I don't feel anything about this person.

You know, like I don't feel close to this person at all.

I don't like see this person and I'm like, oh man, this is my person.

Like this is my guy.

Like if I'm only seeing someone in a group, I'm just like, yeah, they're a part of the group, you know.

But if I have time like this where I'm sitting down, I'm having conversations, I'm like able to be intentional with them and learn about their lives, then I feel connected, you know.

Yeah, I, one thing I always, this is, this sounds funny, but I always sort of envied what you all had.

Because it was three, like the three of you, but then in addition to that, you all are all so relationally inclined that no matter where you were, you had a community.

Yeah.

And part of that was because, I mean, the majority of it is because you deserve it because you're putting energy there.

And where we put resources via our energy is where we'll reap rewards.

Right?

So you had that community, but I remember like visiting you all and being like, dang, you know, and seeing that and loving that for you guys.

at the same time being like, I want that.

Because there's a lot of people who don't have that.

But I think it does take work.

I think that I think we're, honestly, I think we're just super lucky and super blessed to have like a group of friends that has chosen to stay together.

But I think like people ask about it all the time because when we moved to Texas, seven of us moved all at the same time.

And people ask about that because I think there's a lot of people, especially young adults, that desire that and they don't have it.

It's more of a choice than people realize because like the reason we stuck together, we stuck together, is because we chose to stick together.

Right?

And it's very countercultural because typically as a young adult, you go to college or not, but you will typically move to where the opportunities are, the careers are.

You'll go to a college town, you'll get a degree, you'll get hired in a different city, and then you go to that city.

And so all of your choices are being dictated by kind of like what you feel like you want to pursue on a career level or on a personal level.

Rarely is anyone else involved in that decision except maybe if you're in a relationship.

Like no one, I guess sometimes people will follow friends to universities.

Rarely are people graduating with degrees and following friends to jobs or to cities.

Almost nonexistent, right?

So the idea of seven of us moving to Dallas and only three of us being business partners, I feel like a lot of people don't understand that.

But we had decided as a friend group that whatever the next phase in life was, we wanted to do it together and we wanted to build a community and we wanted to continue to grow as friends, which is wild.

And part of that has to do, so my partner Joel, his brother Jared and Bree also moved with us.

So those three are like siblings.

So that's a little easier to understand.

And then our friend Jeremiah as well.

They all had degrees and they were like, well, we're going to have to look for jobs no matter what, but why not do it in the same city as you guys?

If you guys are establishing this coffee company, which is most likely going to be, it's going to be established in a physical location and you guys are going to be there, you know, for a decent amount of time, then we can find jobs there.

Like DFW is huge.

There's plenty of opportunities.

So like if you're going to have to apply for jobs and find jobs, they were like, we're just going to do it where you guys are going and then we can do it together.

And we're thankful because like starting a company from the ground up with no money and no resources and no experience, I honestly don't, I think if it was just us three, I don't think we would have lasted too long.

I think having a support system of friends and community around us gave us the confidence to keep going when it was tough.

I love that so much.

It's such a good testament of the inverse of what happens so often.

People get a $15,000, $20,000 pay raise and they move.

Everything that they had going, awesome community.

They had a primary care physician.

They knew what pharmacy they were going to.

They had restaurants that were their favorites.

But then they take the $20,000 pay bump.

They pack their stuff up.

They get the companies like, hey, we'll even pay for your moving.

What?

So they move all their stuff.

They move into this new city.

They have that $20,000, but everything else that they had, they told themselves, I'm going to find a new community.

I'm going to find friends.

So for me, whenever I move away from Broken Arrow, you were one of my favorite people.

So it's like, okay, Trent Howard.

Well, here's what Trent Howard's like.

So whenever I move, say to UCO, to Edmund, I'm like, okay, I need to find people like this because I was really good friends with this person back home.

And we do this, we get the $20,000 pay bump, we move and then we try and recreate our community, but we can't because there's only one of you.

And we can find similar attributes, but it's such a good testament what you guys have going that you can choose your life moves on other things rather than career and money.

And more often than not, if you choose a relationship, it's going to be more rewarding because you do have a little card in your pocket, which is petroleum engineering degree from an ICE university.

Yet the reason you haven't cashed it in is the value of that is actually less than the value of the community you have.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Exactly.

All of the benefits and rewards you get from that community.

So I think most people or some people don't understand that because they haven't tasted that.

They haven't experienced it.

But like taste and see, and then you'll be hungry.

So a lot of people have experienced being broke, not having money.

And they've also seen how rich people can do certain things.

So then they'll crave that.

Yet if you experience that social fulfillment, it's like, man, I'm going to do this.

Yeah, exactly.

And I think that's something that and so I can speak like as a Christian, I think that we, like I have the value for community.

And I think that this is something that maybe the church doesn't emphasize quite enough.

So like for us, we would always tell people, there was this quote of one of our favorite pastors would say, which is, when you find your tribe, you can find your destiny.

And it's this idea of like, as Christians, so many people, especially young adults are searching for what their calling is.

Like, what's my purpose?

What's my calling?

But we tend to view it as such an individualistic thing.

Like, what am I called to do?

I'm called to be an influencer, I'm called to be a pastor, I'm called to be a business owner, an author, an artist, a worship leader.

And so everyone's trying to figure out what they're called to.

But I think who you're called to or who you're committed to, who you're serving, I think when you prioritize those things, then you'll actually find your destiny within those people.

So we always say like, when you find your people, you'll find your destiny.

Because the chances of like, you're calling, not being connected as people, that's like, what are you doing?

You're doing just stuff by yourself your whole life?

That doesn't make any sense.

And so that's something that we're passionate about, like even when it comes to biblical teachings about the church being the body, then you can't cut off the finger and then that finger be super successful.

It just dies.

It's just cut off.

And so being connected to the body, being connected to community in like a real way, not just like I go to church on Sunday, but like I have people that I am committed to living life with and not just in the sense of like, oh, I'm going to find a wife.

I'm going to get married.

And then that's it.

But like an actual community of people that are committed to each other and committed to helping each other out and committed to growing with each other and seeing each other walk into the purpose of their life.

What's most difficult about that?

What are the hard parts?

I mean, the easy one is like just staying committed to people when you don't want to, like when it gets hard, when there's conflict, when there's disagreements, because you're going to go through phases where it's like you may not feel connected to them.

You may not feel a lot of love towards them.

You may disagree with them.

You may not even enjoy being around them all the time.

But choosing that connection, it's like when you have conflict, typically, when there's a disagreement, and one, you don't really want to like, you don't want to broach that subject because it gets into tricky territory, right?

Like most people don't love conflict.

But then if you leave that un dealt with, then you have bitterness, and the bitterness grows up, and then you're going to drift apart, right?

You're not going to address the thing that you don't like that's going on in the relationship.

So if you don't address it, it's going to grow, you're going to end up going different ways.

So learning to address those things early and learning to really keep your heart open and be vulnerable towards each other.

And then learning to work through conflict and knowing Danny Silk, he's great.

He has a book called Keep Your Love On.

But he talks about this idea of when you go into a disagreement or into conflict, you make sure that both of you know that the goal is connection.

So my goal is to connect with you and for our relationship to be healthy and for both of us to feel loved and connected.

Now you're doing this thing that I really don't like.

But I'm only bringing it up because I want to stay connected to you.

So when you approach it from that way and you're actually finding ways to grow together as a part to just accusing each other and then you get angry and then you're not friends anymore.

Because why do most friendships end?

What do you say?

Lack of trying.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Quit trying.

It gets hard and you go, I can make new friends.

Not worth it.

We think we can replace the person.

But when you invest the energy, same thing with platonic and romantic relationships, you invest the energy and then you build a better foundation, a stronger boat to take on more powerful waves.

Yeah.

That's true.

Yeah.

And in friendship, I think if you can, when you're younger, if you learn how to be a really good friend, I think it's going to help you a ton learning how to be a husband or a wife as well.

Do you remember the first time we met, I wrestled you down and pinned you down?

I was hoping we would talk about this, actually.

When I was flying here, I was like, man, this is really what people want to hear.

People want to hear the origin stories, right?

So we were at a pool party, if I'm not mistaken, right?

We were at a pool party, and I didn't know many of the people there.

I knew a few people they had invited me, and I had maybe seen you around, but we had never really met.

And I was going up the stairs of this house, and I got to the top of the stairs, and as I got to the top of the stairs, I got tackled.

Just blindsided, tackled, sweep the legs, double leg takedown, I'm on the ground, and it turns into a wrestling match.

And do you remember what I said?

You said, sucks for you, because my best friend's a wrestler.

I said, my best friend's a wrestler, as if that was going to give me the edge or intimidate you.

And then we wrestled for probably a good five minutes.

I believe it was a stalemate.

You know, I think that's interesting.

I think you won.

You think so?

I think you said my best friend's a wrestler, and then you prevailed.

I think I remember, I mean, you were the aggressor, and I think I was able to.

Right.

Squash it.

So by you pacifying the ambush, that was impressive.

Yeah.

Yeah, that was valiant.

And isn't it funny that as, so I was 15 years old, you would have been what, 17?

Isn't it funny that that birth, deep and meaningful friendship that's lasted over a decade?

That is funny.

And that's how teenage boys interact?

Yeah.

There's so much there.

I'm glad that I tackled you.

And I'm glad I got tackled, isn't that wild?

I'm glad I got ambushed on the stairwell.

I remember doing that wrestling.

That was a fun pool party.

I also was in that area where I kind of knew some people kind of didn't know people.

Mm-hmm.

But then we hung out in high school, then colleges, we went to different colleges, then moved and moved and moved.

So we haven't lived in the same area for a long time.

And I remember at the beginning of this week, you said, this is gonna be the first time where you are in my world.

Yeah.

In like a decade.

The first time, which is wild to think because it's been a decade of friendship and we really would only see each other when you would visit where I lived or when we would see each other in our hometown over holidays.

Because when I met you, it was the summer before your freshman year of college.

And I was a junior in high school, so I met you that summer and then you moved away two months later and then we just stayed connected through mutual friends.

So like winter break, we would all hang out at our friend's house for like every other day.

And then you were also, you were friends with me, but you were also friends with my roommates in college.

So you would come visit us in college every once in a while.

Yeah.

And then summers, summers, I guess we lived in Tulsa once or twice.

We got to hang out.

We got to hammock.

Yeah, not together.

Not in the same hammock by the way.

Different ones.

We would ride long boards or penny boards.

We would hammock.

That was a pretty big thing in Tulsa.

I feel like people hammocked.

That was fun.

That was one of my most fun summers because I was so, I had good people.

But actually, I'm sugarcoating it.

Actually, it wasn't the best summer because I think I was going through stuff too.

But that was nice.

It was a good summer.

Yeah, I think back on that summer fondly.

I think, because that was 2017, that was like the last time in my life I probably had that little amount of responsibility.

Like that was one of those college summers where you're just hanging out.

I didn't work during the week.

And I had so much free time to just kick it, kind of be a kid almost, you know.

First time I ever watched La La Land was with you.

I remember that ending.

Top three movie, right?

Yeah.

It's a top three movie for me.

That's one of my favorite movies of all time.

But you, one of your super powers is relationships.

And it bleeds through what you're doing now.

It bleeds through what you were doing then.

What's your explanation for that?

Why is your super power relationships?

Why is my super power relationships?

Or one of your super powers?

I think you have a few.

That's a good question.

Well, I think that I've always said, I don't even know exactly where it comes from, but I've always said, do you ever think about the idea of like your funeral?

Like what are people going to say at your funeral?

Yeah.

When people would ask me that question, I would always say, I'd want people to say he was a good friend.

Hmm.

And I don't know where that came from.

Does that make sense?

Like I've always just, I've always enjoyed friendship.

I've always enjoyed building community.

I've always enjoyed like being intentional with people.

But I really don't know where that came from.

I mean, from pretty young, like I don't know if it was high school or college.

I just remember being like, that's what I want to be known for.

So you could say that was God.

I don't know.

God did?

Yeah.

I mean, I think like, it's another one of those things.

You just choose for it to be a value and then you prioritize it.

And I think that's something you do.

You do really well as well.

I mean, you have to give yourself credit.

You're very intentional.

You reach out to people.

You connect with people.

You make sure to put the effort in on your side of the relationship.

And I think if you do that, then that's what it takes.

What would you say my superpowers are?

What are your superpowers?

Yeah, you can only pick three.

Oh my gosh.

You can only do three to five.

Okay, I'd say your superpowers are...

I'm just kidding.

And you don't have to listen to them all because that takes too long.

Yeah, I get that.

I get that.

I think one of your superpowers, I think you're extremely intentional as a friend as well.

I would say that, I think one of your superpowers is your ability to thrive in awkwardness.

And I think that's one of the things that actually makes you such a good communicator, is that you don't feel awkward when other people feel awkward.

Do you have any examples of that?

Do you recall any situations?

Oh, gosh.

Because you know there's some.

I'm trying to think.

I mean, I feel like it's like, I don't know.

You all would often talk about bits.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

How they'd be like, Chris is just trying out a bit or.

And it was funny because I would get accused of trying out a bit when I wasn't.

Really?

So one thing we would always talk about as a bit is sometimes when you would talk on the phone, you naturally have a very slow cadence.

Right.

And you think through what you say very, like, very thoughtfully.

And because of that, sometimes you'd be telling stories on the phone and they would.

It would.

This isn't going to come up as a compliment.

My superpower.

It would sometimes feel as if your goal was to see how long you could keep the other person on the line.

Like while talking, like while telling us a story as slowly as possible.

And we thought at one point, I remember talking to Carson and thinking, I think this is a big bit where he's seeing how long he can keep you on the hook before you make an excuse that the phone call is over.

Because it wasn't always like that, but there was a period of time where you'd call to catch up.

Hey, man, how's it going?

And then you'd be looking at the phone and you're like...

You'd be putting on two times.

It's been an hour and 27 minutes.

Two times, three times speed.

And see, this was before we were listening to podcasts, so we couldn't speed it up.

That was kind of like your podcast back then of the week.

It's almost like you workshopping the podcast was calling us.

So you got all of those aspects out early.

Yeah.

That's a good superpower.

Yeah.

Being intentional.

Being intentional is a big superpower.

I think it's one of the biggest superpowers.

Historically, I felt there have been moments where I'm too intentional.

And I remember that in the romantic setting, I would be like...

I've always heard that phrase in church.

In church, I always guard her heart.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

So everything you do, you have to make sure you don't hurt the woman, the person you're dating.

So I'd be like, hey, I'm approaching you because I want to talk.

I think...

I would be talking like, hey, I'd love to go on a coffee, not romantic, just as a friend.

And then everything would be like that.

Like, hey, how are you doing?

I'm just checking in.

So then in graduate school, I went on that like, oh, I'm just going to have fun.

Intentionality out the window.

And then I hit a point where I was like, well, it's good to be intentional, yet it's also good to have spontaneity.

Yes.

And I think that is one of the biggest things.

There's this rubber band theory.

I think they call it relational dialectics.

And it posits that in every relationship, we have these axioms, and on each side, there is two values.

And each person is pulling one way or the other.

And we have to make sure that we are not too far apart on these things, or else the rubber band will snap.

So one of these axioms is novelty and predictability.

So if you always...

I feel like you are...

I don't know.

I mean, you're kind of both.

But you're definitely high on opening new experiences, right?

Because you like to travel a lot.

So then I may not be as high in that.

So whenever you're dating someone and you're finding someone to live life with, then you have to make sure that the person that you end up in a relationship isn't like, I want the same thing every day, every year.

So I think that with the spontaneity and intentionality, it's like that rubber band, because I was pulling intentionality a whole bunch.

And then I tried to pull spontaneity, but it wasn't me.

So I try and land in between.

Yeah, that makes sense.

I think like when it comes to intentionality too, going back, you are really good at making people feel like they're like the most important person in the room, right?

Like you have a way about you where when you meet someone, you're able to be very locked in, which I would say is a superpower.

But then I can also see why in the younger days, that could be very tricky territory with women, because if you show up to a church event or any sort of social event, and you single someone out, and you're like really being intentional, then it starts to get a little shaky.

It can get a little shaky real fast.

And it's not even the person.

It's like other people watching.

Other people watching and the person.

I think the whole situation, the way people perceive it, especially because most people probably aren't as intentional as you.

Also, when it comes to younger, young adults, you think about college age.

Most guys aren't that confident.

They're not that intentional.

They're not operating like that.

So it kind of stands out in a social setting where they're like, this guy.

He's locked in.

This guy's got his eyes on the prize.

And in reality, you're just trying to make people feel connected.

And you don't even know.

Because you're also a naturally curious person.

And so that's something.

I'd say that's another superpower of yours.

Like I have been trying to grow that muscle so much because in business, I've realized that being curious will give you shortcuts to so many things.

Like the idea of asking questions.

Like my partner Joel always says, questions are shortcuts.

That's good.

And I don't ask nearly enough questions or I'll meet people, you know, like because having a coffee shop, you meet people from all walks of life.

You have access to all of this knowledge and experience.

Like someone might come in that's a successful business person.

Someone might come in that's a stay at home mom.

A lawyer might come in.

All of these different people, right?

Teacher, producer.

Executive producer.

Yeah.

And if I'm not asking questions, I am robbing myself of some like amazing information and knowledge that I could probably gain.

Yeah.

I've been thinking about that a lot.

Being curious.

What do you think?

Would you say you're a naturally curious person?

I like that you're being curious right now and asking me questions.

I love podcasts that go both ways.

Yeah.

I would say I'm naturally curious.

And I would say that I view people as being one of the greatest dynamic sources of data to learn from.

I think naturally human beings are socially wired so we can learn more from people because we get emotionally connected to them.

So if we see something happen to them, it's more likely to stick with us.

Books are good.

Movies are good.

All of the stuff that we can transfer information are good.

But there's something about talking to people that we can learn from or we can just grow from.

So I don't think I'd do this if it weren't curiosity.

Because even whenever we were playing this podcast, it's like we've known each other for so long.

What do we choose to talk about?

Because there's so much to talk about.

But whenever we actually sit down, it's like, well, we'll just let our curiosity lead.

Like with some guests, I'll be like, we have to answer one question.

Like what's the one question we have to answer?

But then at other times, I think just having you here is a slam dunk.

Like whenever you were planning on coming down, I've been stoked for this, right?

And just the fact that now I get to have a podcast that says Trent Howard on it, and it's going to have your face, and I get to listen to it.

Like that's a major dub.

So whenever I'm actually here, then it's like, well, hey, what are we curious about?

You know, like what conversation do we want to have?

And any good podcast is going to be curiosity.

And that's one of my biggest tips I always give anybody is if anybody's like, how do I become a better communicator, communication training?

80% of it's like therapy.

80% of it's being like, hey, what's inside of you?

Because oftentimes the best communicators believe what they say.

So if you don't know what you believe, that's an issue.

If you feel like you're not a good communicator, if you feel like you don't have ideas worth sharing, that's an issue.

We have to address all that stuff.

And then after that, we address, well, what are you curious about?

Because people can sense pure curiosity.

I can tell when you're asking me questions just to get me talking versus when you're asking me questions because you're genuinely curious.

So I think the best podcasters are just following the curiosity.

Like Lex Friedman, Six Hours.

That's a severe case of curiosity.

He's stricken with it and it's a curse, but it's a blessing too.

But you see that it's a curse for him because look at his resume.

And like the other day, we were looking at that post he put up about how he's so downtrodden and all this stuff that's happening in Ukraine.

He spent like a month asking people about Ukraine.

Can I say that in a sense, I feel like I'm kind of betraying myself by being on this podcast because we've talked recently about how I think I enjoy your solo podcasts the most, maybe out of all of them, because it's so interesting to hear you talk about communication.

And then in the midst of that, I'm now here talking to you so that it's not a solo podcast.

But here's the deal.

You have goals and visions of being a big influencer.

And part of that is media.

That's true.

How else will I get sponsored by Coke Zero?

That's one of my goals.

So if you guys want to repost that tag Coke Zero, I'd love to be sponsored.

As he takes a glug.

I do think it's the best Coke that they've made.

I think it's nice that there's no sugar in it.

And I've done a couple schemes to get sponsored.

One weekend at the lake, I tried to drink a dozen in one weekend.

And vlog about it on Instagram.

And I never got a response from them.

How many did you get down?

I think I only made it through nine.

That's why you didn't get a response.

Do you think they didn't like, they needed to see more follow through?

More commitment.

That's a big company.

Yeah, that's true.

But who else is doing it out there?

Who else with a large public platform, besides TV commercials where an actor just gets paid, who is out there organically promoting Coke on their own accord?

Promoting Coke Zero, specifically.

So do you want the sponsorship to say from Coke Zero or from Coke?

Coca Cola would be the sponsor, right?

But even they have commercials that say, Coke Zero?

Is this the best Coke we've made?

I've seen recently that they're also making the claim that this is their best product.

Specifically Coke Zero has their own commercials.

Okay.

I didn't realize that.

You're educating me on Coke Zero.

Yeah, and they're promoting it as the best.

Okay.

Which is kind of wild, right?

Yeah, that is wild.

So I don't drink soda.

I don't drink coffee.

I know.

I don't drink alcohol.

I know.

So you're probably wondering, well, what do you drink?

Water.

Seltzer water.

Seltzer water.

Okay.

Chocolate milk.

Some water.

Juice at all or too much sugar?

No juice.

Do I eat sugar?

You do.

That's where I get all my sugar from.

Sweet tooth?

Very sweet.

Okay.

You?

I have a bad sweet tooth.

It's consistent and it's in the evening time and it sometimes feels unquenchable if there's no sweets in the house.

What do you do?

Like if the house is void of sweets, like sometimes my roommate will keep a chocolate bar on the counter and I'll have like a piece and I will-

No, it's for him.

But if that's the only sweets in the house, I will eat it.

You will pass that barrier of taking his property.

I'll let him know everything's, you know, everything's above board.

Everything's above board.

But-

Not personal.

It's not personal.

I just have to deal with this.

Yeah.

And we've had moments, he's had moments where I got one Coke Z left in the fridge and I come home, Coke Z is gone.

Reaction?

Can't blame him.

Can't blame him.

You cannot blame him.

So there's empathy there.

There's empathy.

There's a lot of understanding because if I were in the same boat, I may be tempted as well.

And so luckily we live close to a few grocery stores.

So you make the run, you grab another pack.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Who's your favorite podcaster other than me?

Oh gosh.

Favorite podcaster other than you.

I only listen to a few.

Here's the thing.

Lex Friedman, Jordan Peterson, they're like big dogs, right?

They're getting the big names.

I enjoy that.

But I listen to Craig Groeschel's Leadership Podcast.

I think it's phenomenal.

What does he say?

Logan, by the way, was giving you the thumbs up with Craig Groeschel.

Okay.

Yeah, he's great.

So he has it.

Well, he has a few like catchphrases.

But one of the things he says at the end of a lot is everyone wins when a leader gets better.

So good.

And I love that.

The same way I love your phrase, right?

Which one?

Which is?

Life is better when you talk to people?

Life is better when you talk to people.

Isn't that so good?

I think it's a great phrase.

I think it's as true as it gets.

What do you think about your line?

What would your line be?

What would my line be?

I mean, we have been talking a lot about community.

I have a high value for community.

One of the reasons we started the coffee company is to cultivate community.

I think you could say...

If I say life is better with community, I feel like I'm just kind of stealing your format.

It is though.

I do think life is better with community.

What's the point of doing anything alone?

Well, you can go faster.

You don't have to worry about others.

It's cheaper.

Sometimes when you are alone...

See, here's the question, right?

It's like, why wouldn't people be in community?

Because a lot of them aren't.

That's true.

It takes energy.

Yeah.

It takes resources.

People get burnt.

People get betrayed.

That's a big one.

Trust is a big one.

They deal with pain and shame and hurt.

You're right.

I think that is true.

I think a lot of people don't have community because one, they've experienced bad community.

They've experienced pain.

They've experienced hurt.

And they've calculated the risk, and it doesn't seem great, right?

But what people often aren't doing is playing out the alternative all the way.

They're not calculating the alternative to the same degree that they calculate having community.

Does that make sense?

Because when you calculate the alternative, it's like loneliness.

And if there's anything we've seen in our generation and in the current climate of the world, it's that loneliness is way more harmful than the potential for someone to, you know, not reciprocate.

Would you agree?

Yeah.

Can I ask you a couple X-Freeman-like questions?

Yeah, I love that.

What's been the most painful moment of your life?

Poof.

Oh my gosh.

Most painful moment of my life?

That's a tough one.

I will say like, I will say like one of the lowest moments of my life, I think, was probably freshman year of college.

I remember this moment.

It was like, you know, it's one of those moments where it's like a really low moment, but then it's also like a moment where you make a powerful decision that changes your life.

But I remember going into college.

I had joined a fraternity.

I was kind of in like the party world, right?

Like it wasn't a great culture.

And it was my first time away from home.

So I was homesick.

I missed my parents.

I was in this world that I didn't really feel like I belonged in, right?

But then I was making not great choices.

And then at the same time, I was kind of involved in church, but it was all kind of like a facade because I kind of living like, you know, both sides.

We're like, oh yeah, just kind of doing whatever kind of people pleasing.

And I remember I hit this moment where I felt like I just moved to this new town and I felt like no one actually knew me, but I was just kind of putting on a show, putting on a facade.

And I was in this fraternity with people that it was just a bad culture.

I knew it was bad, right?

There was a lot of drugs, alcohol, sexual promiscuity, anything, you know, it's like the normal like freshman in college party life.

And then I kind of felt this draw to be a part of a church community, but then I felt like I was lying because I was kind of living this double life.

And I remember hitting this moment where I just felt empty, felt completely disconnected.

I felt like I had no friends.

I felt lonely.

I felt like a liar.

It was like, you know, just complete like dissonance, like internal dissonance of just like not knowing, not kind of knowing who you were, I guess, kind of a crisis.

And I remember having that in the specifically in my dorm room one night at like the middle of the night and just crying, just being like, this sucks.

You know, like you go to college, you have all these expectations.

So it's going to be great.

And then it was like a month and it was what I felt like was rock bottom.

And so that was, I would say, maybe the one of the most like probably the lowest point of my life.

But then it was in that moment where I would say I fully committed my life to Jesus.

So it was like in that moment where I kind of saw my current trajectory was like I saw it in my in my imagination.

It was like all the decisions I was making and then just that feeling of emptiness.

And then the alternative, I was like, well, God, God was the alternative, essentially.

So it was like a relationship, a real relationship with God, really going headfirst and really cutting off all of those things in my life that weren't bringing happiness, essentially.

Does that make sense?

Yeah.

That's tough.

Yeah.

That's scary, too.

That was a low point.

But you had friends, you had people, you just didn't feel like they were your people.

Exactly.

That's what's so interesting about it.

And I think like that's why you hear people talk about being lonely or depression and how the what's going on internally isn't necessarily representative of the of the real reality.

Because the real reality is like I'm a phone call away from my parents.

I have friends that care about me.

I have friends that I've made from high school.

I had friends probably even in Norman that did care like that were great people.

But yet the internal dissonance was like I'm I'm alone.

Well, you know...

And it was interesting, like, all the...

It's kinda like I had my life planned out, right?

I was gonna go to the university, I was gonna join a fraternity, I was gonna get an engineering degree, I was gonna meet girls, I was gonna make a lot of money.

And so I was in the process of doing those things I'd planned for myself, but then the outcome was feeling empty.

And so I think it was me realizing that a lot of the things I had prioritized, like financial success, being accepted nd liked by people.

I was doing these things that weren't actually fulfilling.

And then I had locally realized it then instead of 20 years later.

So I'm thankful for that.

I would attribute that to God.

Man, is that good?

Is that a good answer?

You killed it.

Is that deep enough?

You are good at podcasting naturally.

You think?

Yeah.

Because you're able to answer questions, which is so good.

Because I'm thinking about, you know Tony, you know my editing ids thinking, ooh, that'd be a good short.

Ooh, I'm seeing an Instagram.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, like, stuff like that.

Good.

Sometimes I have to turn that off, but.

Yeah, is it hard to stay, is it hard sometimes as like, because you're creating this whole thing, right?

So, you're the interviewer, but you're also the editor.

You're also the producer.

You're the creator, right?

You're the founder.

The marketer.

You're the marketer.

Like, you're the one cutting the clips.

Does that sometimes like, is that hard, do you think?

Because internally, you're like trying to note take.

You're trying to like make mental notes, but then also really be engaged with my answer.

It is.

And you know, when I get screwed, whenever I start trying to talk in a way that would be a real, or would be a short, so thinking to myself.

Like this next thing I'm going to say is going to be good.

I better.

And like riff on it.

And because, you know, most of them, you want to have a hook and you want to have an ending that makes you want to rewatch it.

So whenever I find myself getting there, I have to abort mission, get out of this train ASAP, because that is not the goal of this podcast.

My social media following for the podcast hasn't grown in a while and I'm cool with it.

Because the podcast has evolved so much lately.

Like for those who watch the solo episodes, now I have a whiteboard and I'm going to try and be that whiteboard guy.

I want to be that white whiteboard guy.

Because one thing I've noticed is that if I can illustrate concepts, also articulating them at the same time, there's a higher chance of impact and retention.

And the content that we're talking about, if you're able to retain it and then you're able to apply it to your life, you will live a better, fuller life and be more resilient to stress.

So that means a lot to me.

So the fact that it hasn't grown on Instagram or the reels aren't hitting or my Facebook only has so many followers, I'm cool with it because I know internally it's grown a lot.

And a little gremlin of that same philosophy is, ooh, I need to get good shorts, ooh, or I need to get good reels.

It's like, man, I need to focus on you.

Because from the jump, it was always a collection of conversations to where I was showcasing what it looked like to connect with people in person.

True, true.

So it's like the conversation itself is the example, is like the application for people.

Yeah.

It's like they just get to see two people engage.

And then within the conversation, we have content that could be helpful.

And I think a lot of what you're saying is gonna be incredibly helpful to somebody.

Imagine you in your freshman year listening to this podcast.

I think that could be incredibly helpful.

There are people currently, as we speak, in fraternity houses and communities that they are not supposed to be in.

And they feel a tug on their heart and a calling to be somewhere else.

But guess what?

They're chilling, they're waiting, because they do have the people, yet whenever they're at home alone, it's dark.

Yeah.

And it's a good reason to build a team.

And like you saw, Logan's been incredibly helpful and he's helping me with the podcast production agency.

But I like being able to edit the stuff and I may not move as fast and I may not make as big of waves, but what I do know is I'm retaining a lot of it personally and it's helping with my personal growth.

I've thought about how numbers, you don't want a large following, you want the right following.

I don't want the most people listening to the podcast, I want the right people listening to the podcast.

You're the right person.

You're someone who is positioned in a place in life where you've decided to prioritize relationships, you've decided to build community, not only benefit from community, but build community and then you're pursuing a career in which you can create a third place that allows others to take part in in-person discovery, to take part in social serendipity, to take part in first dates, to take part in, let's show up to this coffee shop and do a voice recital, right?

Let's show up to this coffee shop and I'm about to get dumped in person.

But hey, you had a place to go get dumped and you can go get a coffee and a cinnamon roll after.

I think what you all are doing with the coffee shop, I love it.

I'm such a big fan.

Obviously, I'm a big fan of all the personnel involved.

Three of my favorite people in the world.

But it's so cool because you're building the third place.

You actually bought a building.

You are actually a registered corporation who is selling things to bring people together.

Pretty cool, huh?

I think having the shop, because keep in mind the first three years, we were just a roastery and we didn't actually have a storefront.

And so it was just us three.

And then the only people we would really see face to face were wholesale accounts every once in a while.

You're delivering coffee to a church or to a coffee shop.

So having our own space this year has been just a dream come true.

Like having regulars is such a cool thing.

Like I didn't realize how much I would enjoy it.

But it's like that you have the same people coming in three, four times a week, and you just get to know them.

Like you just know so many aspects of their life and you're able to connect with them.

You're able to like be the one, like the one great thing about their day no matter what.

So it's like someone comes in there having a good day, it gets better because they're here to have coffee, to chat it up, to take a break from work or to be productive and study or work remotely.

Or you have people that have really hard days, they come through the drive through and they're like, this is my treat.

I worked all day, I got kids to take care of at home.

It's been tough, it's been stressful, all of these things.

But then they get to come through, they get to see a smile.

We get to give them something they enjoy.

So it's been really fun, it's been rewarding.

And then being able to do events, like having an event space.

So whether it's worship nights or like voice recitals, concerts, small groups, it's been really cool.

It's such a hack.

You're using a couple of hacks that I think so many people can learn from.

The first being what we talked about, which is you have prioritized relationships and in the opportunity of picking your future, where you're going to move, where you're going to live, what you're going to do, you factor in people and that was really the primary decision-making factor for you.

The other thing that's a hack is you are a part of a business that gathers people and because of that, you get exposed to so many people, but it's also such a good source of social connection for you.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

We always say, and going back to the beginning of like, why did we do coffee in the first place?

One of the main reasons for me is I, like I said, I got to travel a lot in college.

And then I would say, I also traveled a lot just as a kid.

My parents loved traveling, so they really instilled that value in me.

But between me and the other two, my two partners, Joel and Carson, we've probably been to like between 30 and 40 countries, which is amazing.

Everywhere you go in the world, people sit down and they either drink tea or they drink coffee, and they have conversations like this.

And that to me was like the biggest selling point on a coffee shop where I was like, man, this same thing crosses pretty much every culture, right?

Like no matter where you go in the world, I would say that coffee and tea are like the most social drink besides alcohol.

So if you want, if you enjoy conversation, if you enjoy relationships, what better way to do it than a coffee shop?

And it's a major benefit too, because with coffee and tea, oftentimes you can, or you don't have to worry about not remembering what you talked about.

Yeah, exactly.

With alcohol.

It's definitely a different vessel for socialization, right?

It's typically gonna be a little more real.

And it is wild because Annie, she lived for a summer in Dublin, and she told me about the Irish Pub and how it is the social cornerstone for their general society.

It's going and getting a pint of Guinness, sitting down and eating fish and chips while talking.

But it's different in the US.

We don't have that vibe.

Yet I do think coffee shops are so good.

And I think that there needs to be more of them, more competition for you.

But the ocean is big.

And I think that actually not more competition for you because you get to provide the beans to them as a roastery.

See, and that is one of the benefits of being a roastery, is we love to help new coffee shops open.

You heard it here.

We love to help new coffee shops open.

We offer free training.

We offer consulting, whether it's on equipment or build out.

You offer high quality beans.

We offer high quality specialty coffee.

Ethiopian, Colombian, jackpot.

You name it.

We got great blends, great single origins.

We have a phenomenal roaster and we ship for us weekly.

And you're thinking you all are scientifically minded.

You have several degrees amongst the three of you.

And it's not just shooting from the hip.

You've done your research.

Exactly.

And you know what it takes to make a good cup of coffee.

Yeah.

And in addition to that, you know what it takes to create a good experience for a coffee shop.

Exactly, exactly.

And we value relationship.

We value like partnerships.

We value actually helping companies, whether it's a restaurant, a coffee shop, a church.

We really love to see people improve their coffee programs so that what they're offering to their clients and to their customers is just a better all-around experience.

Like we've helped churches start coffee shops.

We've helped, you know, small business owners.

We've helped bakeries transition from just a bakery to a bakery and a coffee shop.

We've helped restaurants improve their coffee programs.

We love it.

You've done a lot.

It's enjoyable, man.

I mean, it's a great job.

There's nothing like waking up and having a nice cup of coffee.

You wouldn't know.

You don't drink it.

Do you call it Joe?

No.

How do you feel about people who call it Joe?

I don't mind.

Here's the thing.

There's so many rules people love, like in specialty coffee, to kind of be the expert.

And we want it to be approachable.

So we put in all the effort.

We read the books, we do the research, we take the master classes, we put in the years of effort of learning how to make it the best possible experience.

You have that thing where people come over into your shop and you all sip on coffee things.

What do you call that?

A tasting party or?

Like a cupping.

A cupping.

A cupping is when you're trying.

Yeah, you do all that stuff.

Yeah, yeah.

So it's like, we want to be the experts, but we only want to, we try not to overwhelm people, or we definitely try not to like talk down to people.

So it's like someone asks for a hot cup of Joe, it's like, great, you know, like we want it to be approachable, because what's the point of like having all that knowledge if you use it to just like hold it over people's heads or make them feel small?

Like the goal is to introduce people to the specialty coffee world and really be a bridge.

Yeah, you're like, we're going for connection.

Yeah, exactly.

And we love that.

Like our favorite thing is when regulars start coming and it's like they've never experienced coffee like that.

And they're just curious, like you said, they just ask questions.

And then all of a sudden they realize that we're like, engineering minded and we've been roasting, for over five years and we have all this.

We love talking about varietals and the process and everything from the farm to the cup.

But then oftentimes we don't show it and we're pretty like unpretentious.

So people are like, oh, what do you like?

I'm like, I've been drinking like butter beer, which is like one of our, some seasonal drink we had on the menu.

And they're like, oh, you don't only drink black coffee all the time, I mostly drink black coffee.

But you also do a little butter beer.

But I'll put a little sugar in there too.

Like I'm trying to get sponsored by Coke Zero.

You know what I mean?

Aspartame.

You got to make room for some aspartame in your life.

Yeah, exactly.

Look it up.

Especially when you drink 12 in a weekend.

I know what aspartame is.

That's tough, man.

What, 12 in a weekend?

Aspartame be taking people out.

I didn't hit all 12, though.

I know, that's why you didn't get the sponsorship.

You think I'm good?

At what cost?

Because you could get a Coke Zero sponsorship.

What if I told you, you could get a Coke Zero sponsorship, but you can only wear shorts for three years?

I hate wearing pants.

You can only wear pants for three years.

I could do it.

Sign up this man.

Because you got those Lululemons on.

Dude, these pants are my favorite.

Yeah.

Would you rather be sponsored by Lululemon or Coke Z?

Oh, gosh.

I'm trying, in my head, I'm trying to think about the money that I've spent on both.

And I think over a lifetime, I would probably spend more money on Coke Zero.

You would spend more on Coke Z.

So a lifetime supply of Coke Zero, I think, would actually be more beneficial to me.

You heard it here.

You heard it here first.

Well, what else we got?

Man, I'm trying to think.

I'm wondering if there's any way to give people more insight into you as a person.

Because I've known you longer than any other guest on here.

Right, you have.

You got the keys, bro.

Oh, man.

Question is, how do you use them?

That's always the question.

When you start rolling, it's the hardest part.

It is.

Think of all of the millions of places we could have take this conversation.

And then you have to choose.

Just like whenever I'm asking you questions, I'll ask you a question and be like, oh, that wasn't a good question.

But that's how it is with conversation too, you know?

And that's what debilitates a lot of people from actually going to them.

That's fair.

I remember in, back in the day when we were first getting to know each other, you had a limit on your screen time.

And you were probably the first person, this was way before people talked about that.

At least I'd never heard people talking about limiting your screen time.

And I remember you would give yourself a certain amount of time on YouTube and you would watch basketball highlights.

I remember we'd be at our friend's house and you'd be like, I'm gonna get my head.

I'm gonna get my screen time in.

That was good for me, wasn't it?

I'd watch basketball highlights with you.

I remember that laying on the floor.

Laying on the floor in the hallway.

On the laptop.

Yep.

I remember you said, here's something I remembered.

You had a quote way back in the day and you said, I never turned down an opportunity to be on a microphone.

That aged well.

And here we are.

But I just remember that because you were always so passionate about communicating and growing as a communicator and obviously you went to school for it.

And I used to be deathly afraid of it.

Like I remember taking a communication class in college where we had to give like 20 minute presentations in front of a big lecture hall.

And I had a laser pointer to point at the slides because it was like an engineering presentation.

Great.

And slide number two, the first slide with the graph on it, I clicked the laser pointer.

My hand was shaking so much from nerves.

The laser was flying up and down the screen.

And so I immediately clicked the laser off and just pointed with my finger.

And I go, if you'll look at the second bar from the left, but I remember you said this thing where you were like, I will never turn down an opportunity to be on a microphone because I know I need to get better and I know I'll only get better through repetition.

And that's something I remember taking that to heart and being like, dang, I need to be better about that.

Like you're at church, you're anywhere.

Like someone asks you to go on stage and do something.

It's so easy for your default reaction to be, you should let someone else do it.

And I remember thinking, now I'm just gonna be like Chris Miller.

I'm just gonna do it.

It's paid off.

You're good now.

It's helped.

Was that you with the Chamber of Commerce video where they hit you with that question?

Oh, what was the question?

I think Carson answered it.

Carson or Joel?

It was, I don't think it was me.

What are you gonna do for our community?

Oh yeah.

This video.

Completely unexpected.

For those who are listening or watching.

Oh gosh.

They got inducted into an event.

I don't wanna throw too much shade, but the question that was asked was just like, what?

And it's moments like that where people ask questions on large scales.

And it's like, bruh.

That upset me.

I remember messaging you all.

Yeah.

It's like, what in the world?

What an awful use of influence.

And no warning.

Like there wasn't a, they didn't let us know they were gonna ask those questions.

And so the question I remember, we were all just stunned because like you're opening a new business.

You wanna have good publicity.

You want like, you know, you wanna be seen in a good light.

And then it was like, dude, someone blind sides you with a question.

And then it's like a live stream.

That was whack.

Sometimes, I mean, you can be as comfortable as you want on a microphone, but sometimes a question will always blind side you.

And I think being sincere that you're blindsided sometimes is the best move.

Oh, for sure.

Yeah, because trying to play it off sometimes turns out really bad.

But that question was just a weird one.

And I think that whole operation was pretty shoddy.

Mm-hmm.

But hey, I love the initiative and the idea of what they had going on.

But they need to...

I'm reading this book called Art of Gathering right now.

And a big thing about any gathering is what's the purpose.

So I think their purpose...

Imagine we're talking about the Chamber of Commerce, okay?

So the Chamber of Commerce, if a new business is grand opening, the purpose should be or could be, not should, we won't should on anybody right now.

That's up to them.

The purpose could be to honor, okay, to introduce the new business owners to the community.

So asking all uch questions.

So you completely change who you invite based off that purpose.

Because if it's this purpose is to introduce the business owners to the community versus the purpose is to gather the Chamber of Commerce, that affects your guest list because if it's introduced, well, then we're going to invite more community members versus Chamber of Commerce members, right?

So they need to, this is my assessment, they need to go back and figure out what their purpose is, because it seemed like they were saying that the purpose was to introduce business owners to the community.

But whenever I looked at the video, it kind of seemed like the gathering of the Chamber of Commerce and that they were just hanging and not really given the other people much time.

Hypothetically.

Hypothetically.

Yeah.

If it were that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was...

That's an interesting scenario.

I think your assessment is probably pretty accurate.

I think that the intention was good.

The execution was an area of growth.

Yeah.

We would talk about like at church, we say wins and growths.

That's the two categories.

There's wins and there's growths.

So, final message.

My final message?

Yeah.

Life is better when you talk to people.

I think that's the message.

Be intentional.

Choose friendship.

Prioritize community and show up.

Showing up is so big.

I think about that so much with community.

If you show up and you show up consistently, you will build relationships that you never would have dreamed of and it will be rewarding.

At that point, there's no secret sauce.

No secret sauce.

Be vulnerable.

Be yourself.

Show up.

Dr.

Jeff Hall, when I had him on, he said, don't be a flake, show up.

Really?

Dr.

Trent Howard having him on.

Show up.

If you don't show up somewhere, nothing can come from it.

If you show up, anything could come from it.

Are you ready for pizza?

I'm so ready for pizza, bro.

You're probably hungry.

I'm getting there.

I mean, I don't.

I don't give you much of a lunch.

I had a power crunch bar.

I've been making all your meals while you're here.

Yeah.

Like the airplane.

Thanks for being here, bro.

Appreciate you.

Love you.

It's been a pleasure.

You too, man.

I'm thankful.

I'm thankful for the opportunity to be in the, what do you call it?

This upstairs studio.

Yeah.

Cool.

Talk to People Podcast Studio.

And I'm excited to see, man, where you go from here.

You're on some YouTube videos.

Now you're on podcasts.

Aim for the stars, land on the moon.