#64 - How Cult Leaders and Pyramid Schemes Communicate

Welcome to the Talk to People Podcast.

My name is Chris Miller.

If this is your first time being here or your 63rd time being here, this podcast exists to help others become better communicators that can clearly and confidently articulate their thoughts so that they can live fuller lives and be more resilient to life stress.

We believe that life is better when you talk to people and that we can improve our lives by having better conversations, relationships, and community.

The topic of this episode is something we haven't discussed much on this podcast.

Whenever I was studying in my undergraduate, Interpersonal Communication, one of the courses, it was an elective course that was offered, had its own textbook and everything, was called The Dark Side of Communication.

Now, when you hear that, it raises questions.

First off, if there's a dark side, there must be a light side.

But second off, what is the dark side of communication?

The main premise of communication that a lot of us have looked at, and a lot of us have learned by listening to this podcast, by reading books, by studying the people around us who, maybe our boss is really good at giving a presentation, or maybe we've had teachers, and despite a concept being new to us, they've been able to communicate this new concept in a way to where we can latch on, and we leave the semester knowing new stuff.

We enter the semester not knowing algebra, but our teacher was so good at communicating that we leave the semester knowing algebra.

That's a big deal, right?

So communication is a tool that we can learn how to improve at.

There are many different levels to that.

But the basic premise is that communication is a tool.

Now, when you look at other tools, I'll give some examples.

I'm looking at the whiteboard behind the camera, and I mentioned the camera.

So let me quickly say that the past few podcasts have been audio only.

And I've listened to them in the car.

I've listened to them while walking.

I love audio.

But I've been inspired by Rob Dial, who is the Mindset Mentor.

He has the Mindset Mentor Podcast, and he's built quite a big personal brand around this concept of the Mindset Mentor.

And what he talks about is psychology.

He talks about the importance of habits, the importance of viewing yourself and a higher line, a whole bunch of stuff.

But it centers around psychology and mindset.

So he's the Mindset Mentor.

He has a YouTube channel where he puts up his videos.

So I am going to create a separate YouTube channel called The Communication Mentor.

And in the future, I may even rebrand this podcast because I want the Talk to People ethos, yet I also want to be able to develop and create a personal brand that is recognizable.

So Talk to People, the act is what drives me to do all this because if I were to have a billboard that could be seen by anybody, I would put Talk to People on there because that is my heart, and we know that life is better when you talk to people.

But Communication Mentor, the approach there is having multiple episodes a week, and these episodes are anywhere from 10 to 25 minutes and we discuss different topics.

And I think in the season of life that I'm currently in, that is appealing to me because we're going to be able to look at a lot of different stuff, and I can learn about it, and I can also study it, articulate my thoughts on the podcast, write about it, and then from all of that, pick some things out to ultimately use to create a consulting formula that I can add value to others whenever they hire me for consulting, use in a manuscript for a book, and then use whenever I'm scripting on a keynote to go speak for corporations and at conferences.

So there definitely is some thought here, but I have a camera rolling now, and it's me and the camera.

If you've watched my YouTube videos, it's not as framed up.

I'm wanting it to be a bit more relatable, a bit more frictionless for me, so I will be posting a video version of this up.

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Okay, communication is a tool.

Some examples of other tools.

A hammer, a axe, a scalpel.

So a scalpel can be used to save people's lives.

Surgeons use scalpels to do myriad surgeries.

They'll do a heart transplant.

They'll start with a scalpel.

An axe can be used to cut down trees.

An axe can be used to split a log and put the log in a fire and have incredible conversation around the fire.

A hammer can be used to hammer a nail on the wall, hang a whiteboard on that wall, and have a to-do list on there that makes you more productive.

But all three of these things can also be used negatively.

An axe can be used to hurt someone.

A hammer can be used to hurt someone.

A scalpel can be used to harm someone.

Communication is similar.

Communication can be used to boost people, to build them up, to encourage them, to introduce them or reveal to them how much value they have, to ask questions that elicit information that is key to them and actually unlocks things in their lives.

Communication can be used to set aside limiting barriers from people.

It can be used to relate with one another and establish solidarity and to help pull people out of depressive patterns, help pull people out of self-critical sloth.

Communication is incredible, but communication can also be used to manipulate, to gaslight, to make people feel as if they are inferior to another human being.

It can be used to do terrible things.

And that is the dark side of communication.

Today, I was listening to a podcast with Charles Duhigg.

Charles Duhigg is the author of the book Super Communicator.

This book is the pop cultural icon for communication right now.

Many books that are written about certain soft skills typically are approached one of two ways.

Either you have a professor write the book, and it's more academic, or you have someone like Tony Robbins, who isn't a professor, but is more of a self-development guru, write the book, and it's some research, but more practical.

So Super Communicators is teetering that line.

And in the book, or I was listening to the podcast, and they begin talking about cults, talking about cult leaders, and how cult leaders could leverage communication to ultimately manipulate others to join into something that is destructive to their well-being.

And this is completely true.

People can also use communication to scam them.

They can use communication to cheat on them.

They can use communication to lie to their face.

They can use communication to get them to believe a world that isn't actually real, but get them to jump from being sure it's not real to being uncertain it's not real to it being possible it's not real.

So it's really fascinating when you look at how communication can be used for the negative.

Some ways that cult leaders use communication.

I know this is an interesting topic, but some ways that cult leaders use communication.

Let's talk about it.

One big way that a lot of us don't think about is pacing.

I have heard of or seen people who are trying to coerce or trying to manipulate either slow down or speed up because from pacing, we sense importance.

We sense substance.

Whenever people slow down, it seems like there's something important that's being said.

So you'll hear people, and they'll talk slow, and they'll talk quiet.

But then you'll hear people speed up, and we have to understand that when people speed up, what they're trying to do is they're trying to change the pacing.

And really, you do want to change the pacing because changing the pacing keeps us on our toes.

And the more you can change the pacing, then the more we're going to be receptive to new things being said because we don't go on autopilot.

And then if you slow it down, you recognize that when we go on autopilot, we're not going to be able to understand as much.

Then it starts to make sense.

So pacing is a big thing.

Another thing is the subject.

They'll talk about the same stuff all the time.

And we can kind of take note of this and be like, every time we get together, you keep talking about the clouds and how you view the clouds is this.

Another interesting thing is that they utilize self-disclosure typically in unusual ways.

What I mean by this is they'll either disclose to you very personal stuff at a rate that most people wouldn't, or they don't disclose to you anything, but they try and elicit you to disclose.

So they try and get information out of you without providing reciprocity and giving information back.

To some people, this is the dream, right?

You have someone asking you all these questions, incredibly interested in you, but then you leave realizing you just told them your whole life story and you don't know a single thing about them.

So utilizing self-disclosure in a really interesting way, not having conversational turn-taking or reciprocity, and then people will use communication to establish what we refer to as weaponry.

This is when you look at Altman and Taylor in 1973, created this theory called Social Penetration Theory, which says whenever you are establishing relationships with people, there are a few different components, but one of the big components was talking about vulnerability and how individuals, whenever we're vulnerable, we're like an onion.

And we're like an onion.

Think of Shrek and Donkey.

He's talking about onions.

We're like an onion because there are so many different layers to an onion, but they peel off differently.

For one onion, you'll have a lighter layer on the outside or a darker layer on the outside, and that's just like people, because for people, me being vulnerable, that could be talking about, for one person, it could be talking about finances.

Maybe growing up, you never talked about finances.

That was a topic where people kept their mouth shut.

Like, don't talk about your money with me.

For another family, everybody talks about finances.

Hey, what's your salary?

Hey, how much was this?

Hey, how much was that?

Hey, what's your car note?

What's your mortgage?

How much you got in your savings account?

That could be very casual.

You have some families that won't talk about sex at all.

It is extremely taboo.

Nobody's talking about it.

But then you have other families who are very open.

All the details, all the information, and it's different examples of vulnerability.

For some, talking about politics is a ton of vulnerability.

For others, you can read their blog and learn every single political viewpoint they have.

But whenever we become vulnerable with people and we let people in through these layers, we start revealing these layers, the closer we get to the core of the onion, the closer we get to the core of who we are, then the social penetration theory says we give others weaponry.

So this is, unfortunately, when you get your heart broken, that's the dark side.

You let somebody in, they know who you are, and then the relationship doesn't work out.

And you experience a pain and anguish that you haven't experienced yet, and you're like, why can't I get over this person?

And the reason is because you spent so much time taking so many steps forward with them, taking so many layers off the onion, that they hit you at a core level that you hadn't let anybody else get to.

And that makes you heartbroken.

So whenever we're talking about the dark side and manipulation, people who, for instance, cult leaders, will get a whole bunch of information about people so that they have that as a weaponry to either get them to obey or get them to not leave.

Right?

It's almost like a form of blackmail.

It's expressing interest in the other person so that you can then use the information that you get to hold it over their head.

And it gets really weird relational dynamics.

We could go a lot deeper into this, but typically you'll note that these people who are building cults are high in charisma.

Charisma is a concept or a word that I don't think I've spent any time on this podcast about.

One reason why is I feel like it's kind of a buzzword.

I feel like people associate charisma with the way people are using the word Riz right now.

It's this swagger.

It's this abstract, intangible component that either some people have or some people don't.

Some people use it as a verb.

Some people use it as an adjective.

Some people use it as a noun.

It's an interesting word, and I think charisma is somewhat similar, but we know that charismatic people are typically easier to relate with than those who don't have charisma.

And that's like these people who are using it to manipulate.

But I want to talk about how you can also use communication to prevent finding yourself in situations like a cult.

The first way that we're going to talk about is you're going to be more cognizant and more critical to all these components we're talking about.

If you've ever been on a date before and you asked this person a ton of questions and they didn't ask you any questions back, it's a bad feeling.

It doesn't feel natural.

You leave the date thinking, oh, hey, they may have been super cute.

They may be incredibly wealthy.

They may be very well dressed.

They may have a really nice car or maybe they have a mysterious allure to them.

But at some point, you're like, they didn't express interest in me at all.

Maybe they think you're attractive, but they didn't even ask you a single question, and it feels weird.

And that's because it's not supposed to be that way.

It's supposed to be reciprocal.

We're both supposed to ask each other questions.

And if you really want this relationship to work out, but it's a red flag if that happened, then you have to talk about it.

You have to say, hey, is there a reason you don't ask questions?

And maybe there's a good one.

But being more cognizant of the social give and take lets you be more apprehensive about getting into weird situations.

If there's a person who is always asking you questions and wants to know so much about you, yet they're very guarded, take a pause and kind of consider why.

Also, if you have somebody who, whenever they're talking to all these different people, you notice that they talk about the same thing and they use pacing, and they seem to talk about other people behind their back.

Think about what the cold leader would do, right?

To try and manipulate somebody to join.

And the truth of the matter is, it's much more complicated than, well, cult leaders are really good at talking and they use pacing, and they're really good at eliciting.

Like the FBI, the CIA, intelligence agencies, will train people on elicitation.

That is the spy who gets the person to say the thing they weren't supposed to say.

That is the person, and you either have the suave guy or the beautiful woman who sleeps with the protagonist, and they leave with the intel, right?

Like this is a trained thing.

It is very well known that we as people were wired for social connection.

Therefore, we will do a lot to get it.

So it's much more complicated than, oh, yeah, this person was really good at talking.

People are more likely to get in toxic environments if they're lonely and they need social connection.

Some people have a higher genetic predisposition for more social connection or a different type of social connection.

Some people have less.

Some people happen to live in a community that doesn't value third places, that doesn't value recreation, that doesn't value city programs, right?

There's so many different things to this.

But the last way and the best way that knowing communication prevents you from being recruited into a cult is that you get to talk to other people about what's going on.

And the best way to know whether or not a situation is a good situation is typically to have a board of elders or they don't got to be older than you, but just a board.

And a board is the wise people in your life.

And you can say, hey, this person wants me to join this program where all I have to do is pay $300 a month.

But if I'm able to sell this amount of product, I'll be able to get it cut out of it, and the more people I get to sell this product, they'll get a cut out of it, and I'll get a cut out of everything they sell.

And then I'll get a cut out of everything that they recruit, other people who they recruited to sell.

And then you start doing the numbers in your head, and you're like, hold up, did you say 300 a month?

That's 3,600 a year.

But he did say you can make a million dollars, and you get an all-blacked out BMW.

I know Pyramid Schemes aren't exactly considered a cult, but unfortunately, it's an organization where a small group of people benefit from the demise of a lot of people.

So you could tell that to somebody, hey, listen to this business opportunity.

And then Chris, or whoever's in your board of elders, can say, hey, that doesn't seem like a good deal.

Here's why.

And I understand you're in a pinch, and you need some money, but it doesn't seem like spending money is a way to get your money.

But by knowing communication, you can better explain the situation you're in.

You can better share how it made you feel.

You can better articulate what that person did.

You'll be able to make more accurate guesses, more accurate abstractions about potential intent or motive.

It all matters.

So the question being, how can communication be used negatively and can it?

Yes, totally.

But can it also save us and get us out of the situations and ultimately help us to make the world a better place?

Absolutely.

And that's why I record the podcast, and that's why you're listening to the podcast.

I plan on doing a bit more research, excavation, and presentation when it comes to this idea of manipulation.

A phrase I see a lot is social engineering.

I am not crazy about this idea of how can I utilize social cognition to get the best of others that way I can live the best life.

It seems very predatory.

It doesn't seem like it's going to be constructive in the long run for our society at large.

So I would like to do more research into it, better understand it, and then better articulate why we need to be thinking about it a little bit differently.

Shoot me an email.

Let me know what you thought about this stuff.

I'd like the podcast to reach 100 reviews on Apple podcasts.

So if you haven't reviewed the podcast, I'd love for you to review the podcast, give it five stars if it's added you value.

With that being said, you can email me at talktopeoplepodcast.gmail.com, interact with any of the socials, let me know what you thought of this episode.

If there's something that you'd like to learn more about, if there's something that you've disagreed with, or if you have personal experience about being a part of a cult, and you want to tell me how you got there, what was it that got you there?

Then if you're still there, how are you getting out or how did you get out?

Interesting topic today, Chris.

I realize that.

But what's the point of having a podcast if you don't talk about stuff that interests you?

All right, folks.

Remember, life is better when you talk to people.

Without further ado, we'll see you next time.