#9 - A Counselor's Wisdom in Overcoming Addiction and Shame [KRIS WALKER]

Chris Miller: I'll just ask you a question? Yeah.
Kris Walker: Okay. And then you lead and I'll follow.
Chris Miller: Yeah. Sonny's always walking around. Uh, I love dogs. Um, yeah, he's kind of been our COVID puppy, so he's really shy. But he's a golden retriever, so he's super friendly.
Kris Walker: How old is he?
Chris Miller: Two years old. Oh, cool. Yes.
Kris Walker: Now, have you had him for two years?
Chris Miller: Yeah, we got him when he's two months old. And I surprised Annie with him, actually.
Kris Walker: Really?
Chris Miller: Yeah, because I was leaving for work and I was going to travel a lot and I didn't want her to be alone.
Kris Walker: Right.
Chris Miller: And I wanted her to have a companion. But what I didn't think about was now she has to raise a puppy by herself.
Kris Walker: Right. And hard work.
Chris Miller: Hard work. I was home with her for two weeks whenever we had Sonny as a little baby, and we woke up every 2 hours to take them out. The whole time I was thinking, oh my gosh, I'm about to be on the road and she's going to be at home by herself. But you're looking fly today with the boots and the button up and the belt, uh, buckle. It's different than the fitness where I saw you at work.
Kris Walker: Well, I always have to wear that. I'm a fitness coach there. I like looking nice, so yeah, you.
Chris Miller: Have whenever we were speaking, uh, what was that? A few days ago? And I got to hear a little bit of your story, but also witnessed some of your personality. And I love the attitude you have where you say everybody is cool, everybody has value, everybody has something worth fighting for. And I think listening to you, it's one of the most interesting things. If anybody listening to this, they could really learn a lot from your stories because just the little bit that I heard was really inspiring. So what led you in the first place to begin to work with people in a counseling or mental health position?
Kris Walker: My wife and I, or my girlfriend, she's from Perry, I'm from Emporia. She came down to go to school at Emporia. Uh, we m met, started dating, and then my brother was attending an assembly of God Bible school in Waxahatchee, Texas, 30 miles south of Dallas. And he would come back in the summers and share what a good experience he was having. So then he'd go back to school, then he'd come back for the summer and, hey, there's really good professors there. It's a really good school, all accredited. And so Debbie and I are like, well, hey, what about going to school? We could apply for Pell Grants. We don't have any money. And so we decided, well, hey, let's go down and go to school. And, um, maybe God will direct us. And so that's what we did. So we go down there and start going to school. And they built a brand new psychiatric chemical dependency hospital like, three or 4 miles out of town of this little town. Brand new, really nice. And I had a couple of friends, uh, say, hey, you ought to consider going and applying for there. And so that's what I did. I went in there, put my application in, and, um, I would call them regularly, checking in, checking in. Hey, I can do this. I can be a good asset here. Uh, and they would never get me into the HR director.
Chris Miller: And was this while you were a student?
Kris Walker: Yeah.
Chris Miller: Okay.
Kris Walker: And so anyway, finally, I was talking to the receptionist who had gotten to know me. He's like, hey, can you get me in that door? Let me get in that door. And so, finally got an interview with a lady and had a long, long interview. I'd say an hour and a half, a very long interview. Maybe 2 hours. Chris, I may get back with you a couple of days, three or four days. We'll see. You might hear from me. Three or 4 hours later, she called me, get in here. And that started this path that I was on. They hired me as a mental health technician. You know, a mental health technician. You, uh, hang out with the clients. Whatever you do, you're always with them. Taking their vital signs, taking them to AA meetings, taking, um, them to the gym. Some of the clients you have to put down every 15 minutes where they are. You have to track where they are, and so for different reasons, and so you just hang out with clients, and that's your job. Um, did that for quite a while, maybe a year and a year and a half, and decided, hey, I sat in on some of the group therapy with some of the alcohol and drug counselors, and I'm like, man, this could be something I could get into.
Chris Miller: What was it that made you think.
Kris Walker: That, uh, I had my own history? We all have a history. My history is that, um, my mom found God, or found her relationship with God when we were real little, and my dad didn't want to have anything to do with that. And so she gets saved. She's on fire for God. Dad's like, yeah, I'm not interested. I'm out of here. And I think, Chris, there was more to it than that. I don't know. Here we were, all little. Sure. I, um, think I was eight or nine somewhere in there. 8910 somewhere. But a little boy. And so part of my story is, um, I didn't really care for my mom because my dad and I were pretty close. Um, a little bit of my story is I didn't like her.
Chris Miller: You blamed her?
Kris Walker: Yeah, I blamed her. Our family was upended. There were some things I had to work through. Um, I was a little bit defiant, a little bit confused, a little bit angry. As a young one, growing up, um, in middle school, I did my share of drinking and some pot. Going into high school, did my share of drinking. And so I had a little taste of that drinking and drugging. Some of it's fun. Some of it's not so fun. So when this new hospital opened up, I thought, hey, maybe I've always wanted to help people. I can't fix things. I can't build things. I'm not one of those guys that can do all these different things. I have an eye condition, so I'm not a big hunter. I can't hunt. I don't play golf. A lot of these things that so many guys enjoy. I'm not that guy. I'm not a fisherman. I'm not a hunter. I felt God gives us all different talents, and God gave me a caring heart and a compassionate heart. And so that's the gift I thought God's given me. So I've tried to use that.
Chris Miller: Sure.
Kris Walker: Um, so with this hospital coming in, I'm like, hey, I can relate a little bit to this. I can't say I've been hooked on drugs or alcohol. And that when you're an alcohol and drug abuse counselor that's not in recovery. A lot of counselors are in recovery, and there's some benefits to having that on your staff. Um, I like the blend on my staff of having some that were in recovery and some that weren't. A lot of clients, when they find out that you've never been hooked on crack or meth or alcohol, okay, you can't assist me. You haven't been in my shoes. There's nothing you have to offer me. It's like, well, I can't control that. I feel like I have a lot to offer you. Now. If you have an open mind, you may benefit. If you don't, then that's on you. And so, because of a little bit of my history, some of my family of origin issues, I thought I could, um, be a benefit and to help people.
Chris Miller: Yeah.
Kris Walker: And so I decided to look into becoming back in those days this was back in 88, the end of the early 90s in Texas, you could become a certified counselor. That's what they required to work with alcohol and drug clients with certification. So I went to school and learned a lot and, um, started taking steps towards becoming a certified alcohol and drug abuse counselor, which is what I did. And then the place where I was working hired me, and that started my alcohol and drug abuse counseling career. A lot of hard work with treatment. Um, there's a lot of paperwork, tons of paperwork. Several assessments the state or the feds will require. And it's all timestamped you have to do a treatment plan within 72 hours. You've got to do an interpretive summary within so many hours. So there's a lot of requirements with paperwork. That's challenging because there's some duplications. Some of this assessment is like this assessment, but that's part of working in, um, the mental health field. Documentation is essential, and it's important that it's done correctly.
Chris Miller: Yeah. So you decide to pursue that certificate to become a counselor, and you're a technician at the time, sitting next to the patients, you're essentially being with them wherever they go. It's like babysitting, in a sense.
Kris Walker: Well, yeah. Monitoring, because we all have issues. Um, drug addicts and alcoholics, like everybody else. They have a lot of boundary issues, have a lot of self esteem issues. Obviously when you have a coed facility, the guys are going to try to get in the girls beds and vice versa, which is really disruptive to a unit because what's going on on the unit? The clients all know what's going on on the unit, and the staff are like, what's going? There's a different feel to our unit. What's going on on our unit?
Chris Miller: Right.
Kris Walker: And so that could be sex on the unit, that could be drugs on the unit.
Chris Miller: And the unit is the group of people who are receiving treatment there.
Kris Walker: Yeah. Where they're housed, where their groups are.
Chris Miller: So you go from being a monitor, being next to these people 8 hours a day, 12 hours a day, whatever that looks like, and then you transition into becoming a counselor.
Kris Walker: Right.
Chris Miller: And once you make that transition, then you are actually helping people with their recovery by sitting down with them one on one or leading classes.
Kris Walker: Both. Yeah. You're assigned clients, and you sit down with them and, hey, tell me about what got you here. Um, what are your goals? How can we help you? And you do all the paperwork that's required with them, all the assessments and the treatment plan. Clients have a lot of issues. They just don't have an alcohol problem. There's a myriad of issues. They haven't had a physical in a long time. They haven't had a dentist appointment in a long time. Um, they may have an abscess tooth. So here you have a guy who's got this terrible tooth hurting because he's got an abscess tooth, or his glasses were broken, so he can't see because he doesn't have his glasses. So it's just not okay, this guy drinks too much, or this guy's gotten three Duis, so they have a lot of things. And, um, at the end of my career of counseling, resources were getting smaller and smaller. So a client has many issues, and resources are Dwindling and Dwindling, and so there's a lot of challenges. How do you try to get this tooth getting taken care of? How do you try to get this guy some glasses? So you're trying to navigate all those issues. And like I was saying the other day, Chris, most clients in treatment, they don't want to be there, so they have their defenses up. I'm here because I don't want to spend six months in jail at the county jail, or, um, I don't want to be sanctioned and spend a year, go to prison. I don't want to lose my job. I don't want to lose my spouse. My kids are tired of me yelling at them. So most people that are in treatment centers aren't there because they say, hey, I'm doing too much meth, I'm doing too much crack. I can't quit smoking pot. I'm always drunk. That's not the people that are in treatment centers now, quite a few of them have drug and alcohol problems, some of them don't. But, uh, m, a big majority of them do have a drug or alcohol problem that's causing them problems.
Chris Miller: Sure.
Kris Walker: One thing about addiction is addiction just creates problems in every sphere of life. Takes a toll on their body, takes a toll on their emotions, their careers, their family. Addiction touches. Once addiction is in a person's life, it will touch every sphere of their life in a destructive manner. Yeah, it's just, it's a terrible thing in our society. You know, whether it be, um, drugs or alcohol, um, porn is huge in our society, um, gambling is huge in our society. Some of these things people are aware of, but they don't have a full grasp of the consequences of addiction. So it was a lot of fun doing that for all those years. Very challenging because there's so much paperwork and you're trying to deal with all these people who are in front of you who don't think they need to be there. But if they don't complete treatment, they could do, uh, 90 days in the local jail, or they could lose a job. There's these pretty severe consequences if they don't complete treatment.
Chris Miller: So how does addiction start?
Kris Walker: How does addiction start? Let me say this. Genetics play a part in that and big studies. A lot of money has been spent on that question. If your parents both had a drinking and drug problem I don't remember the statistics, but you are, um, predisposed. If your parents again, there's a genetic piece of the pie, Chris. I don't know how big that piece is, society or, uh, socially, how you're raised. I remember one client, she came into treatment and we were talking like this, and I'm like, so what brings you to our facility? What brings you to treatment? And she goes, well, my daughter turned nine. And I'm like, well, tell me about your daughter turning nine. And her parents cooked meth, and they kept some of the components of meth below the floor joists. And so they would move some of the floor joists, and they would turn her upside down, grab her by the ankles, and drop her below and say, grab that, and grab that and grab that. And so this little girl as a child was raised like this. So I think it was her daughter turning nine. And she remembered it kind of clicked in. When I was that age, I was still grabbing these things from my parents. So if you're raised in the drug world. That's what you know. So I would say where you're raised how you're raised all that plays a part into it.
Chris Miller: Yeah. Um, and how did you guys define addiction? How do you describe addiction? I know there's assessments or questionnaires. What does that process look like of identifying that?
Kris Walker: Yeah, let's see. There's substance abuse and substance dependency. Does someone abuse something or is someone dependent on something? I can't remember the specifics of both of those. One thing I would say is, if it's problematic to you, if everybody's concerned for you, if it's causing you problems in, uh, every sphere of your life, where it's starting to cause problems in all these different areas of your life, your spiritual life, your sex life, every aspect of your life will be impacted when you drink. John, it seems like, um, people disappear from you. Why is that? Why do the kids go to their rooms when you start drinking? What could that be about? Well, I don't know. Chris. Well, hey, John, why don't you ask your kids? Ask your kids, why do you go to the room when I start come home from work and I start drinking? The probable answer is maybe dad is short tempered, or dad starts getting unpredictable, or dad starts yelling at mom. I would always try to get them in tune with, okay, you don't think this drug or alcohol is causing any problems? I wonder if you asked your family and friends what they would say. M try to get them to realize, okay. I don't see it as a problem. I wonder if my wife sees it as a problem or my mom or my dad or my in laws. Get some feedback on yeah, John doesn't think he has a drinking problem, but everybody around John knows John has a drinking problem. And that's one component of addiction is, um, denial. Denial. And, yeah, I don't think I drink too much. Other people seem to think I drink too much, but I don't think I drink too much. Well, you have all these people who love you, who care for you, who, like you, think you drink too much. Maybe you should start asking them. And so one thing you do with treatment is you're trying to bond with people. You have all these people in front of you who don't want to be in front of you. And so, hey, treat what we did at Valeo is tried to treat them with respect and dignity. You've got to have good boundaries. You've got to have good rules. You don't want to have too lenient rules or too many rules. But you've got to have structure. Uh, a lot of us do well with structure. Now a lot of us don't like structure, especially addicts and alcoholics. They don't like structure. I'll go to work when I want to. Well, that won't work very long for your job. So, um, you've got to have structure.
Chris Miller: What makes you say addicts and alcoholics don't like structure. What is it about?
Kris Walker: I'd have to think about that. Probably just the or some addicts and alcoholics have struggles with authority figures. So you're telling them what to do? You can't tell me what to do. So some of its authority figure, um.
Chris Miller: I guess depending on what the substance that they're addicted to. Is it's hard to be reliable?
Kris Walker: Sure.
Chris Miller: And it's hard to show up to work or yeah.
Kris Walker: So much unpredictability, so much irresponsible behavior. You give 15 pastors a bunch of drugs or alcohol, guess what they're going to say and do things they wouldn't normally say or do. Some chemicals like crack and meth. You get paid at 04:00 on Friday and say your paycheck is $2,300. Okay. 03:00 in the morning, you're penniless. Wow, you can't buy a cigarette. Why is that? Because you'll go spend all of your money. Say you buy a case of beer and a fifth and you start drinking that beer. Then you go, hey, I really want to go to the crack house. And so next thing you know, the crack house for six or 8 hours. And um, happens every day. Now it's 03:00 in the morning or 06:00 in the morning and you have no money and you have a wife and two babies and a six year old at home. There's some stress. So there's so much manipulation. Okay, now what do I do at 06:00 in the morning? I can't let my wife know I did this again. So there's just so much manipulation, so much stress. Terrible stress.
Chris Miller: Whenever someone checks into the treatment process, I haven't been in one, I haven't really, uh, witnessed someone's progression through one. But what does this process look like initially? Kind of like take me through the timeline. Someone checks in and then there's an initial assessment, right?
Kris Walker: Yeah, there's different levels of treatment. Like I mentioned the other day, valeo, Behavioral Healthcare, VRC, and Topeka, you have a social detox program. So a person comes in to detox, um, you've got to fill all this paperwork and send it off to the people that are overseeing the treatment. Yes. They approved John to be in detox for three days, um, depending on what the chemical is and their vital signs and all that type of stuff. And so then the detox counselor does an assessment and he's like, okay, John, I think you need inpatient treatment, obviously inpatient twenty four, seven, and say the state authorizes, um, 14 days of inpatient treatment. Okay. And so at the end of that 14 days, you say, hey, John needs another seven days of inpatient treatment. Or let's kick him from residential inpatient treatment to intensive outpatient. Intensive outpatient at ah, Valeo was like 3 hours a day, Monday through Friday, or in the morning, day treatment or in the evening, evening treatment. So social detox, then there's inpatient, you stay 24/7, uh, intensive outpatient. That, uh, could be three or four weeks of that, 3 hours a day, monday through Friday in the morning or in the evening. Then there's outpatient. I think in the state of Kansas, it's maybe one to 9 hours, if I remember right. And so that's called also, like, aftercare you come back once a week and say, hey, how was your back at your job, John? How is it going? Hey, you're back. Everything's going okay at the family?
Chris Miller: It's like maintenance.
Kris Walker: Yeah. Again, addiction, it impacts every area of life. And so, um, now John is not drinking, and he's going back in with a family, and that's going to upset the apple cart of the family because the family is adjusted to John always drinking. So there's all these changes starting to take place. A lot of changing, hopefully, in the positive now, John will be at work on time, and he'll be there, and hopefully he'll do a better job because he's not hungover anyway. Different levels of treatment, that's all got to be you've got to do the assessment and then decide what level of care that assessment says this person needs.
Chris Miller: Okay. So the detox counselor meets with someone when they're first admitted, assesses them after.
Kris Walker: They'Re stable, after they've had some rest and some nutrition, um, they start assessing and deciding what level of care the person needs. Or an outside agency does those assessments, and then they refer. They'll assess the person, say, okay, I, uh, think you need intensive outpatient. Here's three outpatient programs in Topeka. Uh, which one would you like to go to? So you assess, and then you make a referral to that agency. After, um, it gets authorized, you do the assessment. Okay, we think this guy needs intensive outpatient. Will the state agree? Yes, we agree. Well, we're willing to pay for three or four weeks of that. Uh, then you start your treatment program.
Chris Miller: Hence all the paperwork you mentioned.
Kris Walker: Yeah, paperwork is the challenge. And you've got to, um, just kind of say, hey, this is what we do. We do paperwork. We do a lot of paperwork. So you got to be on top of that. If you don't stay on top of it, it'll get up on top of you. So paperwork is essential in the helping profession with mental health or substance abuse.
Chris Miller: Yeah. I wonder now, are they moving into digital charting and digital paperwork?
Kris Walker: Um, yes. Digital, meaning on the computer is all computerized? Yeah.
Chris Miller: Everything's digital.
Kris Walker: Yeah, everything's computerized. Um, yeah. So when I left there in 17, everything was computerized, and it had been computerized for years and years.
Chris Miller: Wow. So one of the things I'm interested in and I think it's because I love questions, and I love it when people ask good questions and knowing what questions to ask. That's so hard to do in a conversation. Right. Whenever you're sitting down with someone who is receiving treatment, how do you know what questions to ask? Is there a guide that you would follow, and there's the same list of questions you'd ask everybody. What does that look like?
Kris Walker: Well, when you're doing these assessments, it's like, hey, part of the assessment is, okay. How has your family been affected by your drinking? Okay, how has your employment been affected? How has your spirituality been affected? How are the different components of your life been affected by this crack use? Once again, I would just try to share honestly. Hey, you've had six duis. Most people don't have six Duis. Do you think that could be problematic? You can't hold a job. A lot of people can hold a job. What's playing a part in that? You're always getting fired. Why are you always getting fired? You used to want to build, um, a company and start your own, um, electrical company. You've kind of quit doing that. Why is that? Yeah, well, my crack use has kind of interfered with that. Okay, so your goal was to have your own electrical company, and you feel like your crack use has taken distracted you from that goal. So you're just talking and, um, again, using honesty and compassion, when they know that you're there for them, they could see it in your eyes, this guy cares for me. He's not out to get me. He's not out to harm me. He's trying to help me. So one on one relationships and try to bonding with them and being legit and being real and maybe, um, at times sharing a tad of your story. It's not about you. You don't want to share too much.
Chris Miller: Sure.
Kris Walker: But, um, sharing a little bit of your story, I think it can be helpful as long as you don't get too much into it. I think you got to be careful with that. It's not about you. You're trying to help that person.
Chris Miller: Right.
Kris Walker: But we all have family dynamics. We all have a past. We've all made some good decisions. We've all made bad decisions.
Chris Miller: And were most of your meetings with clients based off assessments?
Kris Walker: Once they've been referred to our agency, then yes. Okay, you've got our admissions person. Paula would admit them and then take them on the unit, and then they would let me know, hey, a new guy, John Smith, here today. Then I would assign him a counselor and, um, go from there. And then that counselor would meet with him and lay out his treatment and explain the living imbalance, explain all the groups. Okay. Explain how everything works here. Try to give them clear expectations so they know what's expected of them. And then just lay out what treatment is and try to explain it to them as best you can so they know what they're walking into. A lot of clients are in treatment more than one time. It's just not like this guy's been in treatment once, and you never see him again. Now, depending on funding, if it's a for profit, non for profit. In valeo, we dealt with the indigent. And so you would have a person in treatment several times, not just once, and you never see them again. You have a revolving door. This person has been in treatment many times. Uh, I remember robbing this one girl. This was back in, let's see, 99 or 2000. Just this pretty, sweet, kind, loving girl. And, um, she was, um I think Robin was alcohol again, this was, say, 2000. Anyway. So she, I think, would be drinking with her spouse and could really never get away from drinking as long as she was with him. And so Robin would come to treatment every two or three years, and you saw this sweet, loving, pretty girl, and you would just see the light in her eye start disappearing the next time you would see her. And we just slowly watched her decline over the years, some of the therapists, some of the mental health therapists and I, uh, we would talk and and we would say, hey, you know, one day we're going to read about Robin. And one day I walked into work, and the therapist came into my door and shut my door and goes, you know, who's in the paper? And you're like, oh, my God, here we go. Who's in the paper this time? It's just brutal.
Chris Miller: And it's always like a death notice.
Kris Walker: Yeah, that's part of working with addicts and alcoholics is you see people decline. These neat, neat people. Um, so many of them are, um I always thought most of them were just amazing people. Now, some of them, um, we had a conduct with federal adult probation. And so, I mean, we've also had some very dangerous clients. Anyway, um, a lot of normal people just, you know, they've been hooked by a vice. They've been hooked by something. And it's just a massive destructive force in all of our lives. If any of us get hooked by something, um, there's a Bible verse, I think it's in Second Peter, that says, for what a man is overcome by, that he becomes a slave to. And so many of these people, a lot of them are really good people. Some of them are not so good people. Um, again, they have alcohol and drugs in their system, and they're making their decisions with that in their system. It impacts their morals and their values, and it impacts their dreams, hopes, goals. Just impacts every facet of their life.
Chris Miller: So whenever you're meeting with the client, the clinic you're working for wasn't faith based, but you are a man of faith. How do you disentangle the two?
Kris Walker: Well, my view of that is that's why I'm there. Again, remember, I said, um, I feel like God gave me a compassionate heart. I'm there to let my life speak for how I live my life and try, um, to be, uh, a light to that person and let them know, hey. Um, your life can get better. You can get possibly maybe your family back, maybe the person who broke up with you. Sometimes relationships can mend, sometimes they can't. It's very hard. Very hard. It's almost indescribable, um, the emotions of living with someone who's addicted to alcohol or drugs or some other addiction. It's hard to even put into words.
Chris Miller: How do you find hope in the midst of all that? When you're working there and you see on the newspaper, this is who died, or you see people coming back over and over again?
Kris Walker: I think my faith would give me hope. Um, there's a lot of spirituality and recovery. It may not be Jesus Christ centered. A higher power. The a big Book, I think, calls it a higher Power, a God of your own understanding. My faith has played a huge part in every facet of my life. So I think my faith is a big part of what would give me hope. Saying, hey, although I was at a funeral last week, I have people in front of me or in my office and try to encourage them. Hey, are you happy with how your life is going? Are you full of joy? Do you have happiness in your life, Chris? Yeah, my life's hell. It's like, well, if you keep on the path you're on, guess what the hell is going to get greater? One thing I would always try to do, and one thing I think alcohol and drug counselors do a really good job at is, um, you got to paint pictures. And, um, when I went to Morningstar Church, um, here in Lawrence, um, Wayne Simeon started an organization called, um, Call to Greatness. I'm pretty sure Wayne started that organization. Anyway, they would give out Call to Greatness bracelets. They're little blue light baby blue bracelets, and it says Call to Greatness on there. And so I would get some of those when we were going to Morningstar, even when I quit going to Morningstar now I go to Rev City here in Lawrence. Um, I would get bracelets, and I would give these braces to all the clients. I would try to give them a prop. I think I told you about the old Cherokee Indian story. The good wolf and the bad wolf. I would always try to share concepts and share them in ways that they could understand. So many times they haven't been eating well or sleeping well, or they put all these chemicals in their brains. If you use props, if you give them things to help them get the concept, if you're trying to teach them a concept, um, what can I do to give them to help this concept stay with them? The old Cherokee Indian story, i, uh, would hand those out for years and say, hey, put this on your refrigerator. It would cue you the biblical concept of sowing to the spirit or sowing to the flesh. The old Cherokee indian story is basically the same concept. If I give them this and they put it up on their refrigerator, they can see, okay, which wolf am I feeding? Okay, I'm hanging out with my old friends. Okay, maybe I shouldn't be doing that. Okay, well, I haven't been going to my AA meetings or I haven't been going to my church. Maybe I need to get back into doing that or I've not been calling my sponsor lately. Maybe on this little queue on the refrigerator will queue them. Okay, I'm not calling my sponsor every day. I need to call them. So we would always try to give them things that would help them understand the concepts. That's what I tried to do. The basic concept is, um, I'll just share the story. Basically, a young Indian walks up to the spiritual leader of the tribe and goes, hey, I got this struggle going inside my got this big struggle going inside of me. And the old Cherokee Indian, the spiritual leader goes, well, we all got that. And the young guy is like, you even you have that. You have this struggle going on inside you. Oh, we all do. And then the old man goes, well, we all have this struggle going on side of us until we die, we're going to have this struggle and, um, they're going to be fighting and they're going to be tussling throughout our life. And the young man goes, well, which one wins on all these fights? And the old man goes, whichever one you feed the most. And so I tried to share that with all the clients that I dealt with because so many clients feel like their self esteem is so low. They've done so many things against their morals or against their values, and they feel bad about their choices. And so I try to talk to them and, well, Chris, um, I'm a bad person. What was that? I'm a bad person. I've done some pretty bad things, like, well, I hear you, you've done some bad things. We've all made bad choices, okay? Now, maybe I haven't done what you've done, but I've made bad choices, too. And so I would try to share with them that, uh, they were just like this girl that came into treatment when her daughter turned nine. It's like, well, hey, okay, that's all you knew. You knew how to feed the bad wolf throughout your life because your parents showed you how to feed the bad wolf. And guess what? That's what you do. Someone hurts your feelings, you get drunk if you're in recovery, someone hurts your feelings. You walk up to that person, hey, can we talk? Hey, it kind of hurt my feelings when you said this at work yesterday. And you try to walk through that versus when you're an addiction. Someone pisses you off or they flip you off and you go get drunk. I'd share them this story. That okay, your bad wolf is £300 and your good wolf is 25. So when they fight, which one's going to win? The whole 30 people go, well, it's a no brainer. Chris, the 300 pound, he's going to kick his ass, right? Yeah. Okay, so you've been trained to feed the bad wolf. That's what you do. What's recovery? We would try to teach them, okay, if you start starving your bad wolf and feeding your good wolf, then this 300 pound dude is going to start shrinking. And this little 25 wimpy dude, he's going to start growing. And so to me, that would, uh, show them the recovery process. Not that they're bad people, although they've made some bad choices like I have, that in time that instead of walking through life with a 300 pound bad wolf and a 25 pound good wolf walking through life every day, walking through your marriage, raising your kids, going through life, um, going to your job instead of walking through life like that, in time, they could walk through life where their good wolf is £300 and their bad wolf is 25. Now they're walking through their marriage, they're walking through raising kids, they're walking through life life's hurdles, life struggles. They're walking through life with that mindset. And so they could understand, okay, recovery really is if I start hanging out with different people, if I start changing and starving my bad wolf, which we all have, and feeding my good wolf, which we all have, my life can change, my life can transition, my life can get better. Yeah.
Chris Miller: Uh, so recovery was feeding the good wolf and starving the bad wolf, right?
Kris Walker: Yeah. And so that puts it into concept that their minds could grasp. So many of our clients, their minds, they've had all different chemicals in their minds, and they're warped. Yeah. Stress. So much stress. They have so much stress. So you're walking with stress every day? Um, stress on we all have stress in our lives, but stress on us every day in my own life proved very problematic. So it's not healthy to have stress on us all the time. So we would try to teach them a concept. Okay, what could recovery be? Okay, so then they could say, okay, Chris, recovery to me is if I started starving something and started feeding something, that could be recovery for me. You got it in time. Now, say you're a big drug, uh, dealer in Topeka, okay? You've been doing this for 20 years and you're 45 years old. This is what here. This guy's making a lot of money for the last 20 years. This is what he does. This is all he knows. Okay? So going from I'm just giving a concept here. You're selling crack and you make 5000 a week versus going to a job, and you make 1000 a week. Okay? It's like, well, Chris, this is hard. 5000 a week, 1000 a week. But it's like, well, yeah, but you can look yourself in the mirror now. You can respect yourself now. Your kids will look at you in the eye now. Your wife has respect for you now. Do you think your wife wants you to keep doing the 5000 a week? So back to the point of giving them simple concepts where their brains they're wounded. As their brains are healing, as their brains begin to function and to heal better, we were trying to give them concepts that they could grasp. What is addiction? What is recovery? Um, how do I do this addiction? Everything has to change. I've had a Zillion clients say, chris, I don't want to be doing crack anymore, but if you're saying I can't hang with my buddies anymore, I'm not going to do that. It's m like, well, hey, man, it's your life. I can predict what's going to happen in your life. You're saying you don't want to do crack anymore, but you're going to hang out with your buddies who sell crack? What do you think is going to happen now? You told me the judge says, hey, Mr. Walker, if I see you one more time, you're going to do six months in the county. It's like, no, wait, now John, you said if the judge sees you one more time, he's telling you in advance you're doing six months in the county. Right? Uh, isn't that what he told you? That's what he told me. So you're still out there slinging dope you want to do six months to county? Oh, they'll never catch me. Mhm. What was that? They'll never catch me. Are you sure?
Chris Miller: It seems like the inpatient treatment is, as you mentioned, stress. I hadn't really thought about that, but it makes a lot of sense because in my mind, part of the merit behind inpatient treatment is removing people from all of those stressors in their life. The unhealthy relationship, the job, uh, that's terrible, you name it, and essentially building them back up via, uh, self esteem or via healthy habits to a point to where you can put them back in that space. But if they don't change any of those stressors, then it's almost as if they're bound to be worn down again, right?
Kris Walker: Yeah. It gives them a break of whatever they're doing. The hustle of the hustle of addiction. It gives them a period of time. Well, they don't have any chemicals in their brain. There's no alcohol, there's no drugs in their brain. So in a way, it's like their brain detoxifies and they can have, uh, some clarity. Okay. What's really going on on your marriage? How's it really going? Okay. How's your job really going? My guess is your job is on thin ice. My guess, your marriage is on thin ice. So it gives them a break. It's like a gambling person. They can't go to the casino for a month, and here they go regularly. It's like, okay, so it gives them a break from that hustle. And that has to I have to drink, I have to use I have to put a rig in my arm. It gives them a break from that. And then, um, hopefully, if you give them very good nutrition and give them sleep and give them good hydration and you give them amazing one thing at Valeria, they have an amazing treatment program, the Living Imbalance program. It's phenomenal. And so it teaches them it gives them a little bit of insight about all these different topics. Healthy versus unhealthy relationships. What is grief and loss? Um, what are boundaries? What is spirituality? What is healthy sexuality? So they start getting all this information. It's like, well, again, I think a key, at least in my mind's eye, is treating them with respect and compassion and having rules. You just can't have people having sex on your unit because you're going to walk in the units. Like, what? Something's up with our unit that wasn't there yesterday. You could feel it because 50 clients know people are sleeping with each other, or people sneak drugs on the unit and people know there's math or there's something on the units. So we'd take all the clients and put them where they eat in the chow hall. And then we would search rooms. You have to try to keep the drugs off the unit, keep people out of each other's beds, which is challenging when you have a coed facility. But, um, it's highly disruptive. But inpatient treatment is the whole concept of giving them a break. Okay. They're not going to be putting a rig in their arm tonight.
Chris Miller: Yeah. That idea of relatability seems to be, from hearing you, one of the most important things and this idea of being real. And, uh, I'm only imagining someone who is struggling with unhealthy dynamics at home, unhealthy body, like you said, a lack of sleep, a lack of good food. Oftentimes there's health issues and they come to this place that they don't want to be at. They have low self esteem, and then they're sitting down with somebody. And to think that if this person was judgmental or if this person was putting off a, uh, reverent, holier than thou vibe, it would just be soul crushing to them.
Kris Walker: Yeah, well, they would negate that person real quickly. But when you have people that are full of love and compassion and are legit and real with them, um, they sense that. They know that addicts and alcoholics, like a lot of people, they're very perceptive. They can read you in a second. And they know if you're really there, if you really care for them, if you're just putting in the time, they know in a heartbeat. So many people have good intuition. My lovely wife has great intuition. So, you know, all these amazing staff that I've worked with and, um, they know they care for them.
Chris Miller: Now, did you ever have a moment where you're sitting down with the client and you didn't know what to say?
Kris Walker: I'm sure countless times, I'm sure. Um, like I said, you've got to try to bond with these people. And it's not easy because they don't trust people or some of them don't trust people. So you've got to try to bond with them and connect with them. As you're doing these assessments and as you're filling out all this paperwork, you've got to try to connect with them. Um, I always felt like, um, being honest and forthright, whatever question they would ask me, I'd be real with them.
Chris Miller: Let's imagine we are in a position to where a loved one of ours is going through an addiction, but it's pretreatment it's pre a point to where they're forced to go to treatment. Mhm how does one navigate that when talking to somebody else?
Kris Walker: Chris I would say it's very challenging because whatever the addiction is, they're not going to view it as a problem. Say it's spending, or it could be alcohol or drugs or whatever the addictive issue is, it can be dicey. And I would say it could be very challenging, very frustrating. Again, you have a loved one son, daughter, spouse, parent, brother, good friend that are doing things that are detrimental. And if it's in your household, it's detrimental to you, it's detrimental to your finances, it's detrimental to your mental health. Um, part of those dynamics are being, again, honest, uh, respectfully honest. But, um, respectful honesty doesn't break addiction. A lot of times that person has to come to the reality of, okay, whatever the addictive behavior is, that this is problematic to me. Maybe what my brothers are saying, that maybe there's some validity to my brother and my dad saying, hey, Chris, you're always drinking. Have you noticed you drink every day and you drink a lot every day and, uh, ask, would you be willing to talk to other people now if it's in your own home, other people aren't going to know about it. Maybe. For example, gambling. You can gamble online. No one knows about it but your spouse. A lot of times your spouse may not know about it. Right? I've had clients destroy themselves and their families financially and the spouse doesn't know about it. So spend hundreds and hundreds of thousands.
Chris Miller: Of dollars secretly gambling.
Kris Walker: Yeah. Um.
Chris Miller: I know that oftentimes we refer to addiction, substance abuse, as alcohol and drug. But you mentioned things like spending, you mentioned things like gambling, you mentioned porn. And these things are particularly with gambling and porn, with the internet and with mobile phones. They're so accessible.
Kris Walker: I remember a client walked in. I don't remember who his counselor was, but he asked his counselor if he could talk to me. And his counselor goes, yeah, you can talk to Chris. Go talk to him. And he goes, hey, Chris, whenever you have some free time, could I come talk with you. I'm like, sure. So if my door today at three come here, and I have 30 minutes at 03:00. And so this young man walks into my door and he starts talking. He goes, hey, I need to share some things with you. I'm like, okay. And he goes, Chris. I watch porn for hours and hours a day. I get the biggest screen, the biggest phone with the biggest screen, and I watch porn for hours and hours and hours and hours. It just warps the brain. We're all sexual people. We're born sexual. It's like food, okay? You cannot go without food. You've got to have food, right? Okay, so, um, sexual people, um, someone naked on your phone. That's enticing. It's very enticing to me. I've got to make sure I've tried my best to set limits with that. What I've done is taken, um, like YouTube off my phone. I've taken, siri. Siri? Is it, siri?
Chris Miller: Safari.
Kris Walker: Safari. Yes. Safari. Yeah. Taking safari off my phone. So I try to set myself up to be successful with that. Um, yeah. Porn is so massive in our society, and no one really talks about it.
Chris Miller: Which is so interesting to me, right. Because of the taboo associated with sexuality, particularly sexuality is deemed as private, mhm, which makes a lot of sense, mhm. But with the presence of technology now and it being so pervasive, pervasive the fact that you can access it so quickly, it really changes the landscape of it all. And I think we are going to be getting into more discussion of this as years progress, especially whenever we can, maybe when there's longitudinal studies talking about the impact of porn on the brain or talking about how it can be an addictive loop and there's so many different sides. I, uh, know that it's such a big industry, right? So there will be a lot of people who will say it's not a bad thing, it's just any type of entertainment. And then on the other side of the house, there's a lot of people who are very anti against it. And I think that's another reason why people don't talk about it is due to it being morally charged. I know growing up, I was in middle school, high school, college, I would go to youth groups or college ministries. And one of the cornerstones of that Protestant Christian faith is sexual purity, which has a really defined explanation, uh, of what sexuality should be. But I think one of the negative side effects is there can be a lot of shame, particularly whenever people aren't vulnerable, or particularly when sensitive things aren't communicated well. And I think particularly with porn and even some I mean, gambling as well. Whenever you think of a gambler, it's like sometimes gambling isn't any worse than options trading, right? But we think of an options trader as being really smart as the stock investor. And then we think of the sports gambler as being, uh, like, a low life. So that's really interesting to me, that side of the house, because of how accessible it is with porn, with gambling, with spending. Uh, and I think it makes it all the more relatable to everybody listening, because if you have Internet, then there's a chance that you may be impacted by one of those things.
Kris Walker: Yeah. Um, one thing we haven't touched on it, and I'll loop back to this, but one thing we don't touch on is that if you're a therapist and there's so many amazing therapists on this planet and so many amazing counselors on this planet, but you're hearing trauma, you're hearing a woman telling you how she's been raped. You just hear so much pain and trauma, and you just think of a guy hitting a girl with his fist in the face once. It's like, oh, my God. So one thing that is challenging for counselors and therapists is to do really good self care, to take care of themselves emotionally and spiritually, because you hear stuff. Chris, I've killed people. I feel guilty. Um, I was drunk. I don't remember doing it. Or, um, I've killed a family in a car wreck. I was drunk, and they have to live with that. Now, the other side of the coin is, okay, a drunk killed my family. And then you have the drunk, okay, I've killed a family. Two sides to every door. And there's all the emotions that are so hard to deal with, all of that. And there's a concept called compassion fatigue. And I can't tell all of you really well what that is. It makes sense, though, other than you're hearing trauma and pain and suffering. And it's like being in a war. You're in the army, and you're out there in this war, say, in Iraq, and you're shooting people, and you're getting shot at, and your friends are getting killed, and your best friend steps on an IED. And that's not normal. It's normal for the military, but it's not normal to see your friends get shot and blown apart. Is our psyche able to handle that? And, um, again, when you're doing therapy, that's why boundaries are important for therapists and counselors and all that, and self care, making sure they take care. I would try to always encourage my staff to do self care, whatever that is, for that person. That could be meditation, that could be going to the gym, that could be going to church, that could be going to AA meetings, that could be meeting with your sponsor, meeting with your therapist. Whatever self care is for that person. I would always try to encourage my staff to do it. And I would always try to do it. At the end of my career over here in Lawrence, um, one of my counselors that used to work for me, before she worked for me, she worked with a guy, Rick, here in Lawrence, who I think he did level one counseling and level one assessments and then would provide level one therapy or level one treatment. And so Melanie got with me, and I got a hold of Rick, and he was wanting to sell his business. And so, um, again, I'd been out of the field for, I don't know, say, two or three years, and I went over with Rick, and he had these young kids come in. They probably got a DUI or they, I think, maybe a minor in possession. I don't remember why they were in front of Rick to do this assessment, but they were just starting to share. My point, Chris, is that I got to the point where I didn't want to hear this stuff anymore. I don't want to hear trauma, any type of trauma.
Chris Miller: You were burned out.
Kris Walker: Yeah. Maybe it was just burnout. It's like, I don't want to hear that anymore. That part of my life is over. That book has been closed. Uh, now, again, I was a tech from 88 to 90 and then a certified and then a licensed counselor from 1990 to I think it was November of, I think, 16. I don't want to hear that anymore. And that was probably where I was emotionally and psychologically back then. I've had enough of this. But when you're doing it every day, it's just normal. And you're doing all these assessments, you're creating treatment plans, but you're hearing their trauma.
Chris Miller: That makes sense.
Kris Walker: Yeah. I think most of my career, I did okay with that. But again, I know at the end of my career where I wasn't doing that well, personally, I didn't want to hear that stuff anymore. So now you have all these counselors around the planet that are still hearing this stuff every day, doing amazing work. So many people are so gifted and so talented and loving and warm and engaging and just very gifted people helping people.
Chris Miller: Yeah. And just imagine listening to that 8 hours a day, every single day for multiple years. I can only imagine the build up, the fatigue, as you mentioned, that could result in yeah.
Kris Walker: Chris and you're not actually listening to it 8 hours a day because you're doing assessments, and then the counselor has to go do group therapy, and then they're doing an educational group, and then they're doing their living. Imbalance sure. So it's not like you're listening to trauma every day, but you're for sure hearing trauma regularly. And, um, that's where I think spirituality played a big part in it for my life. That's how I took care of myself. Um, my wife Debbie, who's amazing, we would go dancing. We go to a club in Kansas City and go dancing. Um, you've just got to have joy in your life. You've got to take care of yourself, and you got to realize that. And one thing my lovely wife would say is that chris I'm just giving an example. 2.3% of the population has real drug problem. Don't forget that. That's who you work with. But the rest of us don't work with those people. So she would let me know that this is impacting her, this is impacting our relationship. So she would say that periodically to me that, Chris, be careful. But when you're doing it every day, all of your whole career for 27 years, well, that's what I do.
Chris Miller: Yeah, that's what you know.
Kris Walker: Yeah, that's what I know. It's like, well, but Chris yeah. 96% of the world don't have a drug or alcohol problem. You work with a 4% that does.
Chris Miller: I heard the story from this therapist who told me whenever he left work, he would feel a lot of the weight from what he had talked about with the patients or the clients he was sitting in front of. And he shared how he would drive home and with each stoplight or stop sign, he would take a deep breath. Um, and each breath was this symbolic process of letting go of what he had to deal with at work. By the time he got home and walked to the door, he said it was gone.
Kris Walker: Mhm.
Chris Miller: Did you have to do something like that? Did you have processes or a routine that you had when you left work to ensure that you weren't letting work bleed into home?
Kris Walker: Um, Chris, all I can say is looking back on my career, I feel like most of my career I did pretty good self care and I don't remember a lot of taking work home with me. Um, now when you go to funerals, that's sadness. It's just sadness. And you're looking at someone in that casket and you remember all those things they shared with you in your office. They told you their story, some of their story. I'll never forget in Dallas, um, this was in Oak Cliff, I think. Um, a client got his crack and it was down the bottom of a hill and he took his car up the hill and turned it around. My guess is going to smoke crack and go back down there and buy some more. And this guy's daughter walked into the crack house.
Chris Miller: Oh no.
Kris Walker: And then he came to treatment.
Chris Miller: Uh, yeah.
Kris Walker: You have so many things. You have all those family dynamics of guilt. Shame, massive guilt and shame and addiction. So much guilt and so much shame for how you're living your life against your morals or your values. I believe in say the client says, I believe in being truthful. Okay, well, are you truthful when you're running and gunning? Yeah, I'm not. But my value, I value truth and I want to live that way. But in addiction, yeah, I'm not being very truthful because I'm lying to my wife, I'm lying to my kids, but I value truth. So you're trying to point out, okay, when we're drinking and drugging, we're not living by our values. We're not living by the morals that we would like to live by, or the morals that we were raised with. Or the values that we were raised with.
Chris Miller: Yeah, that idea of shame.
Kris Walker: I hate shame.
Chris Miller: Yeah, it's so pernicious.
Kris Walker: Guilt and shame. That's the cool thing about God is there's no condemnation. One thing that amazes me about God is that people talk about his love and his mercy and his grace, which are all so amazing. But whenever he corrects me, chris, I've been a Christian since 11th grade, and I'm 60. I turned 60 last month. I've never once felt God, chris, you stupid knucklehead. I've never felt that. Now I've heard Him say, hey, Chris, are you sure you want to do that? Were you nice to Debbie last night? Are you sure that's what you want to do here? It's up to you. But there's just again, evil uses guilt and shame. And there's so much guilt and shame in addiction and addictive behaviors. And that's one thing to me that's so cool about Jesus and God is that there's no you, Chris. You stupid knucklehead. Why did you do I thought you weren't going to drink anymore. You got another Du. I thought you weren't going to do that. You got fired from your job. I thought you weren't going to do that. Uh, so there's none of that. God's like, hey, Chris, when you start drinking, unpredictability shows up. And that's one of the signs of addiction is unpredictability. When I start, an addict will say, uh, when I start drinking, I can't predict what's going to happen.
Chris Miller: Interesting.
Kris Walker: I may break out in a jail cell. I may break out in handcuffs. Here you have two families say you have a social drinker and an addictive drinker. And two families go to Pizza Hut and they both order and have their kids with them. And so they're eating pizza and drinking beer. And, um, so the one family goes home. The addicted guy drinking, goes home with his family. Hey, sweetheart, I'm going to go to the bar. I'm going to run a liquor store. So they both go to Pizza Out at 07:00 at night. They're eating pizza, having beer. One family goes home, watches the movie, goes to bed. That guy's family goes home. He goes to the liquor store and then to the, uh, uh. What he'll probably do is go to the liquor store or the bar. His really drug of choices crack. And so once he gets that alcohol in them, then he'll get where he really wants to go. And so he goes to the crack house. And, um, 06:00 in the morning, the place gets raided. He goes to jail. And all these people were at the Pizza Hut at 07:00 the night before.
Chris Miller: And one family is waking up while the other family is dealing with, yeah.
Kris Walker: Honey, yeah, you're in jail again. And so there's all this vicious cycle. The a big book talks about the phenomenon of cravings. He's going to have to have more now. His wife doesn't need more. The other couple doesn't need more. He's got to have more. So there's a little bit of the difference between the alcoholic and the social drinker or the nonalcoholic.
Chris Miller: There's the craving of more.
Kris Walker: Yeah. The craving of more. The Big Book of A calls it the phenomenon of cravings.
Chris Miller: The phenomenon of cravings.
Kris Walker: Yeah.
Chris Miller: So growing up, I saw people in my family drink alcohol or do drugs or watching, uh, these things. I was able to tell myself, oh, avoid that behavior. And I learned a lot that way. But there are still things that people didn't talk to me about, right? They didn't talk to me about gambling. They didn't talk to me about porn. They didn't talk to me about a lot of other potentially addictive behaviors. And one of the biggest things that I've learned is the importance of having a community and being willing to be vulnerable. But guilt and shame really makes that difficult. When you're feeling shameful about something and you feel as if you can't share it. And I know that we've all been there. Whether you're in Asia, Africa, United States, we have our certain moral code. And like you said, it could be related to a faith. It could be related to a way of life. And whenever our behavior conflicts with that moral code, we feel that shame. And it's a, uh, pernicious cycle. So hearing you talk about how you hate it, that makes a lot of sense, considering you've seen it.
Kris Walker: Uh, well, I've had a million clients. Tell me about how they have guilt and shame over whatever they did. Again. When you have someone full of alcohol or drugs, everything goes out the door. You cannot predict what's going to happen the rest of the day. Or the rest of the night. There's no predicting of it. I've had thousands of thousands of clients say, Chris, I would have never done what I did if I had not been drunk or high, uh, say, hit my wife. I would have never done that had not been drunk.
Chris Miller: And it puts them in a cognitive impairment. They lose their judgment and they end up doing something they regret.
Kris Walker: Yeah.
Chris Miller: How do you deal with regret? I feel like that's something that you see every single day if you're in that life.
Kris Walker: Now explain Chris a little bit more. You mean in my own life? Are you talking about the clients or how do I deal with regret?
Chris Miller: Yeah. Good Question.
Kris Walker: In my own life. Like I said, uh, with the YouTube stuff. Chris, you've been on your phone 3 hours a day. Darn, I don't want to be on my phone 3 hours a day. We all have these amazing phones in our pockets and you get an alert. You spent 4 hours and 20 minutes a day on your phone screen time. I didn't spend that time with my wife or kids. Uh, so we have this thing in our life now that wasn't in our life 20 years ago. And so one thing I would try to teach the clients, as well as my sons and especially myself, is how do we set ourselves up to be successful? To me, going to church helps me be successful. That's why I don't miss church. I'm in a life group. We have amazing life groups at Rev City. And Rev City is just an, uh, amazing church. God is in so many churches around the planet because God is really moving to me. We see what evil is doing, but we know God is moving. It's like you're telling a client, okay, the judge has told you one more DUI. You're going to spend three years in prison because you've had so many Duis. How do you be successful and not do that? Okay, well, obviously, one day at a time. We all live our lives one day at a time. Um, how do you build people around? You could go into an a meeting once a day or four or five times a week. Will that help you not drink again? Not going to prison three years for three years? Yes, that could help me. Well, could talking to your sponsor every day, could that help you not drink that day again? The judge has told you you're going to go to prison for three years if he sees you again. Or another DUI. So how do you set yourself up to be successful? And so, uh, obviously teaching the clients, but also doing the same thing in our lives. How do I be successful in my life? Well, I need God in my life. I need church in my life. I found an on fire church. That's why I'm always there. Um, I go to life groups. Um, I've gone to life groups. I don't know how many years now, say four or five years. Um, that's a midweek service. A lot of people, they'll have church on Wednesday nights. Our church does life groups, all different types. There's a life group for the college kids, there's a life group for couples. There's a life group going through this book. There's a men's group, there's a women's group. All these different types of life groups. A lot of people don't need that in their life. I need that in my life. I feel like guys need guys and girls need girls. I need men of God in my life. Um, they need me in their life. I need to encourage them with how they encourage me on how they're trying to live their life. And we're all encouraging each other on how we're living our life. Trying to be good husbands, trying to be good fathers, trying to be good employees. Going back to the good wolf, Chris, that's part of me feeding my good wolf so into my spirit. I've got to do that. If I don't do that, if my gas tank, emotional gas tank is empty, I'm apt to make a bad decision. If I'm in church regularly, it helps me make good decisions. To me, life's about relationships and decisions and, um, how do I have healthy relationships? How do I have good decision making?
Chris Miller: Yeah. Uh, I'm so grateful that you've spent so much time working with people face to face, because the reality is a lot of families are affected by addiction, and oftentimes we don't know what to say, and we don't know what to do. Yet hearing your stories and hearing even this concept of the good wolf and the bad wolf and reminding yourself, what is this behavior doing? Is this behavior feeding the good wolf? Is this behavior feeding the bad wolf? Gives you a framework. It gives you something to continually think about, which I think is so beneficial. Uh, before we wrap it up, one of the biggest takeaways that you've had from this whole experience as an addiction counselor, if you could put a bow tie on it, a one dot summary of it all.
Kris Walker: Again, Chris, I don't know about a one dot summary, um, addiction. I use the analogy of fishing. My son and I went fishing in Canada. We went salmon fishing with a church group. Uh, I don't know. This was a long, long time ago. Say 24 24 24 say 24 years ago. A long time ago, my my son and I went fishing, and we're up in this huge, I guess, lake. I'm not a fisherman, but, Chris, you look down at your feet, and there's salmon everywhere. I mean, everywhere. And, um, I guess I would just wrap it up by saying it's almost like God said, chris, evil has evil's fishing for us all, and he uses different baits for all of us. Chris, what may be bait for you may not be bait for me. There's all different types of baits for different people. And when you have your finger under the string on the fishing pole, or you're holding the fishing pole, the slightest little nibble and you jerk your fishing pole and you set the hook in the mouth of that fish. So I kind of see evil having little baits for everybody, and I've got to keep my defenses up. I got to keep my alert up for, uh, I don't want him to hook me throughout my life. So so many people get hooked by something they didn't know it was going to hook them. And then he starts reeling us in, and, uh, our lives are going in a different direction. So how I would kind of put an end to this is that so many people in treatment centers get better. I use the analogy of addiction as, like a snowball at the top of a hill. At the very top of the hill, it's a 3.2 beer or it's a joint. It's something small. Um, a lot of addiction starts out with beer and pot, and then that little ball gets pushed down that hill, and it starts going down that hill, and it starts getting bigger. It starts growing in diameter, it starts getting heavier at the top of the hill. It wasn't a big deal. As addiction progresses, it's just this massive force that's going to be blowing over your marriage. It's going to be blowing over your children. It's going to be blowing over your self esteem, your dreams, hopes, goals, morals, values. It's just this massive destructive force. Again, so many people make progress. So many people go on down and, um, they pass away. Addiction takes their life or takes their marriage or takes an amazing job. Recovery, um, is a daily thing, implementing things. What do I do every day to be successful? One day at a time. Building support, Aana, church spirituality, a sponsor, a therapist, um, all the goodness of things. So don't know if I answered your question tying this up, but I feel very honored for my career. Um, a lot of it was pretty amazing, although it was very challenging. So rewarding. So many people out there that get into recovery, and they become alcohol and drug abuse counselors themselves, or therapists or just a functioning member of society.
Chris Miller: Yeah, recovery is worth it. And you're the man.
Kris Walker: Uh, god is good. God is good. He's really the man. I can be pretty simple minded sometimes. He's like, follow the leader. When we were kids, he's the leader. And I'm just trying to follow. Uh, try to be compassionate and loving and try to be the best employee. I work at Pioneer Ridge Independent Living now in Lawrence. Try to be the best employee I can be. I've always tried. Like I told you, Chris, my dad left when I was little, so that greatly impacted me. And I've always tried hard to, um I want my sons and wife to convict me when I pass away. Hopefully, they'll convict me, have so much evidence. They've got to convict me of being a loving, engaged, caring father. And hopefully my wife will convict me of being a compassionate, loving husband. So I'm trying to build evidence every day.
Chris Miller: Right.
Kris Walker: Unrefutable evidence.
Chris Miller: You're building guilty. You're building the case.
Kris Walker: Yeah. And hopefully Gal will say, chris, I, uh, gave you some talent, and, man, you put that into work and you let your light shine just like you are, Chris. And he'll say, hey, get in here, let's party.
Chris Miller: Yeah, exactly. Well, let's keep building that case. Thank you for being here, Chris. From one chris to another. Chris, uh, I appreciate you.
Kris Walker: Well, thank you for having me.
Chris Miller: You bet. And we will see you next time, folks.